URM Status

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>Does anybody know which of the top schools weigh URM status more heavily than the others? I'm not entirely sure of the percentages of minorities in the various schools I am looking at. By the way, I am Argentinian, haven't taken the LSAT yet, and have a 3.5 GPA (skewed number, GPA over final three years is close to 3.9, so a huge upward trend. will be explained fully in an addendum), haven't taken the LSAT yet but lets hypothetically say a score in the upper 160's (ex. 167). So first, which schools tend to have the least URM's, and second, how much does URM status actually help you in the admissions process?<br>
Here are some of the schools I am considering, spread over three categories. </p>

<p>Reaches- Virginia, Michigan, Penn, Cornell, Duke, GTown, Northwestern</p>

<p>Matches- Boston U, Fordham, Notre Dame, Washington and Lee, Boston College</p>

<p>Safeties- American U, U Maryland, U Conn</p>

2

<p>Ultimately what is really the most significant or what helps you in the admissions process is the adversity one has faced by being a minority. The socioeconomic implications and the cultural aspects (diversity).</p>

<p>My last name is Hispanic but I don't look it at all. Really the only adversity has been after people know my surname. However, had they just seen me or how I am they probably would've thought I was a stereotypical "white guy".</p>

<p>The only thing of course is the language which I know from home and the customs from a Hispanic background that may have stuck on throughout the years.</p>

<p>Not to stereotype but my friends that are Argentine are most likely to be whiter than someone from, for example, Bolivia, in which case the true weight that's added for being a URM is somewhat removed.</p>

<p>Hope that helps, che. ;-)</p>

3

<p>Lol Che, I call my dad that sometimes. I know what you mean about the skin tone not being too dark. My great grandparents are from Poland. They moved to Argentina so only two generations of my family lived there. However, I think I have enough examples of discrimination to make a solid personal statement out of. I always speak in spanish to my dad, aunts, counsins, etc. I essentially grew up in a hispanic family because we always lived so close to my dad's relatives who had moved to the US. Those who know me know that my appearance isn't necessarily indicative of my background. I have faced quite a bit of hardship in justifying my accomplishments to many people. Those who don't like me claim that I get preferential treatment because I'm hispanic. They tell me that any job I get over them or anything I receive that they don't must be due to my background. Once I became a hospitality administration major, I entered an environment much more friendly to minority students. I joined and became an executive chairman for a club called the National Society of Minorities in Hospitality. I did extensive work to promote the interests and advancement of minority students in every part of the industry. I think this activism and leadership gives me a solid foundation to write a strong personal statement on what it taught me and how I can transfer these values into my eventual law education and career.</p>

4

<p>Yeah well it seems that it'll help you out. Because in another way one's appearance not necessarily being indicative of one's heritage means little if we're heavily influence by our roots if you get what I mean. From what you've written it seems you definitely fit the URM status quo so I would say it's going to help you out as much as any other URM or maybe even more if you really sell the PS. That is definitely the adversity I face also and so I don't think your or my appearance or background really changes the fact that our URM status has affected us in adverse ways. So I say it's going to help out! As far as which schools give more preference I don't know but from what I've read by some credible posters here, the "standard" for admission is usually somewhat if not substantially lower than that for a White or Asian student.</p>

5

<p>I have an extreme distaste for people who are of European ancestry that claim URM status. The entire point of URM status is to help people who had a disadvantaged upbringing (ie: came from an economically disadvantaged area that didn't value education and had cops berating you due to your skin color). You don't have that.</p>

6

<p>That's absurd Mr. Payne. Based on your argument you'd pretty much wipe out most of the minorities.</p>

<p>A large percentage of African Americans have more European ancestry than black; a lot of Hispanics have more European blood than they do native or black blood-- especially in certain parts of Mexico and South America.</p>

<p>And minority doesn't mean you fit the physical stereotype, it means you fit the minority in cultural, social and economic aspects.</p>

<p>Plenty of my Mexican friends have English and Irish ancestors-- heck some look more white than the average "American".</p>

<p>What distinguishes them is the fact that they didn't learn English until they were 7 (as was my case actually), their parents don't have particularly prestigious jobs, the stereotyping, the fact that just because they're Hispanic all of the negative connotation associated with it comes whether or not it is actually even applicable, regardless of race.</p>

<p>So if you want to eliminate half of all the URMs just because they aren't "brown" or "black" that's quite naive and somewhat racist, IMO.</p>

7

<p>
[quote]
A large percentage of African Americans have more European ancestry than black; a lot of Hispanics have more European blood than they do native or black blood-- especially in certain parts of Mexico and South America.

[/quote]
Exactly. In Brazil they have actually gone to genetic testing to determine who benefits from affirmative action and who doesn't.</p>

<p>
[quote]
And minority doesn't mean you fit the physical stereotype, it means you fit the minority in cultural, social and economic aspects.

[/quote]
Umm, that's false. Much of the URM logic <em>is</em> based on the physical aspects. The primary beneficiaries of affirmative action are those who are upper middle class blacks/hispanics. Ones that were pushed to do well in school. But then the URM push makes them competitive to a school they wouldn't have been previously.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Plenty of my Mexican friends have English and Irish ancestors-- heck some look more white than the average "American".

[/quote]
And they shouldn't be counted as URMs. Pretty simple. </p>

<p>
[quote]
What distinguishes them is the fact that they didn't learn English until they were 7 (as was my case actually), their parents don't have particularly prestigious jobs, the stereotyping, the fact that just because they're Hispanic all of the negative connotation associated with it comes whether or not it is actually even applicable, regardless of race.

[/quote]
Plenty of Asians had to deal with all that stuff, yet they don't get the URM benefit. Because, hey, they aren't disadvantaged educationally. They dominate standardized testing for the most part in the US.</p>

<p>
[quote]
So if you want to eliminate half of all the URMs just because they aren't "brown" or "black" that's quite naive and somewhat racist, IMO.

[/quote]
The entire concept of racebased affirmative action is racist. I just don't think letting upper middle class **whites<a href="and%20that's%20generally%20the%20distinguishing%20mark%20of%20elites%20in%20South%20America">/b</a> should get the benefit of affirmative action. Speaking Spanish and knowing some South American traditions in no way qualifies one for affirmative action (which is race based in virtually all instances in collegiate admissions, btw).</p>

8

<p>I'm Mexican and since my parents came to this country they have been inculcating in me to get an education to be able to live better lives than they had, which is why they sacrificed theirs for us.</p>

<p>I'm the first in my family to go to college and I did pretty damn well and now I have some great law schools to choose from.</p>

<p>I don't think you necessarily have to have drunk parents who don't give a crap about education to be a URM. Really that's the complete opposite in every single possible way. People who come here do it to find the American dream and that's definitely something kids from URM families pick up on. Every URM that I met in my undergrad career fit that demographic.</p>

<p>If you can write an essay about your URM status I don't think there's any reason why someone should tell you you don't qualify.</p>

<p>Out of curiosity, are you a URM?</p>

9

<p>I also don't see why my parents must be poor and underprivileged for me to be a URM. How does the work ethic of my father affect the culture that I identify myself with? So if my parents weren't berated and cared about school and education, this changes my culture? Your argument does not make sense. How is one relevant to the other? You equate poor education and social status to URM status. I know plenty of uneducated people from my area in Jersey who live bad lives in poor neighborhoods. And guess what, most of them are white. Regardless of your "extreme distaste" I have done more to promote the educational and employment interests of minorities of all types than most people will ever do. I am not simply exploiting a technicality. Again, your definition is narrow-minded, insulting and flat-out incorrect.</p>

10

<p>"Exactly. In Brazil they have actually gone to genetic testing to determine who benefits from affirmative action and who doesn't."</p>

<p>That's sad. But who cares, we aren't in Brazil, thank goodness.</p>

<p>"Umm, that's false. Much of the URM logic <em>is</em> based on the physical aspects. The primary beneficiaries of affirmative action are those who are upper middle class blacks/hispanics. Ones that were pushed to do well in school. But then the URM push makes them competitive to a school they wouldn't have been previously."</p>

<p>Lol. No it isn't. Yes I'm sure I'm going to go to an interview at Columbia and have them say, "Well we'd love to offer you admission but unfortunately you don't look Hispanic at all." Or have them swab my mouth to make sure I have sufficient "URM" genes. And please don't act as if we couldn't get into schools based on our stats alone. So if my parents push me to do well in school (which they always have) I'm not a URM? That's borderline racist right there. </p>

<p>I think any good parent would want their kid to do well in school, not just Asians and Whites. Just because you're a URM doesn't mean your parents don't care about education.</p>

<p>"And they shouldn't be counted as URMs. Pretty simple."</p>

<p>Pretty complicated actually. I reiterate, just because you have European roots doesn't mean you're "white" or a non-URM. Your appearance or surname has little to do with your background, really.</p>

<p>"Plenty of Asians had to deal with all that stuff, yet they don't get the URM benefit. Because, hey, they aren't disadvantaged educationally. They dominate standardized testing for the most part in the US."</p>

<p>It has to do with the fact that they are the ones saturating all American universities. . .not because their parents value education necessarily. So by your logic, if I go to an average American high school and I don't have to dodge bullets to get there, I'm not a URM?</p>

<p>"The entire concept of racebased affirmative action is racist. I just don't think letting upper middle class whites (and that's generally the distinguishing mark of elites in South America) should get the benefit of affirmative action. Speaking Spanish and knowing some South American traditions in no way qualifies one for affirmative action (which is race based in virtually all instances in collegiate admissions, btw)."</p>

<p>Just because you're a White Hispanic doesn't mean you're rich. You're entering an entirely new demographic now which is beside the point. You're pretty much saying you shouldn't get the benefit because, hell, you're white and white people are the ones on the top in the Hispanic social ladder! Wrong. You need to really rethink your logic.</p>

11

<p>
[quote]
I also don't see why my parents must be poor and underprivileged for me to be a URM.

[/quote]
Now we are getting to the core of the issue. URM is a bad designation. It should be done on an individual basis. I don't believe that someone who is white and upper-middle class should be getting a bump. I don't care if you're a 1st generation from Russia, UK, France, Germany, Argentina, Spain, Brazil, Mexico, etc. If you are white and upper middle class, forget it.</p>

<p>
[quote]
How does the work ethic of my father affect the culture that I identify myself with?

[/quote]
Because you aren't disadvantaged, obviously.</p>

<p>
[quote]
So if my parents weren't berated and cared about school and education, this changes my culture?

[/quote]
If you aren't disadvantaged, no dice. Why don't I get some benefit because of my culture? Why not my neighborhood? Just because you come from a foreign country? Please, that is a pathetic argument.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Your argument does not make sense. How is one relevant to the other?

[/quote]
URM status is just a proxy a measure of how disadvantaged someone is. Because, guess what, that's why a group becomes underrepresented to begin with! It's poor because half the people who get into top schools under the "URM" label were not disadvantaged at all. I'm gonna assume the same for the topic starter.</p>

<p>
[quote]
You equate poor education and social status to URM status.

[/quote]
Not only do I do it, but colleges do it to! In fact, that's the reason URM status was made to begin with, to correct these imbalances!</p>

<p>
[quote]
I know plenty of uneducated people from my area in Jersey who live bad lives in poor neighborhoods. And guess what, most of them are white.

[/quote]
Exactly, and they are disadvantaged. Maybe they should be getting the bump. Certainly moreso than upper-middle class whites that have a Spanish last name.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Regardless of your "extreme distaste" I have done more to promote the educational and employment interests of minorities of all types than most people will ever do.

[/quote]
Then get in based on those merits. Not by exploiting some URM loophole.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I am not simply exploiting a technicality. Again, your definition is narrow-minded, insulting and flat-out incorrect.

[/quote]
And you certainly haven't convinced me to change my thought pattern.</p>

<p>I don't believe upper-middle class whites should get URM tags. Simple as that.</p>

12

<p>Ok, I'm not going to continue arguing with you. You have your opinion and I have mine. Luckily for me, law schools don't see it your way. I have faced more discrimination than you assume. That is why I took it upon myself to promote the interests mentioned above and really become a leader in my college community and advocate for minority advancement. You aren't the one I need to convince anyway.</p>

13

<p>
[quote]
I have faced quite a bit of hardship in justifying my accomplishments to many people. Those who don't like me claim that I get preferential treatment because I'm hispanic. They tell me that any job I get over them or anything I receive that they don't must be due to my background.

[/quote]
I missed this gem early.</p>

<p>So basically you are giving people like myself reason in doubting your accomplishments because you are seeking URM status. Amazing.</p>

14

<p>Without getting into the AA debate, I want to warn devilsrule that some law schools really dislike hospitality administration or any other vocational major. Don't argue with me about whether they should; they do. You need to keep this in mind. If you have a double major or tons of courses in liberal arts, it will help. If not, when you compare your stats with those of law schools, don't expect a "bounce" from AA because even if you get it, it's only going to offset the deductions for your vocational major.</p>

<p>If I were advising you, I'd tell you to spend some time figuring out which law schools have admitted SHA grads.</p>

15

<p>How am I giving you reason to doubt my accomplishments? The people who do this are completely unjustified in doing so. Nothing that I have ever accomplished or achieved has been as a result of what my culture is. Rather, its from my own hard work. Again, you aren't the one I have to convince. I learned quite a long time ago that I am who I am. People will always try to classify me or label me as different things, but I am who I am. Use whatever statistical, technical, narrow-minded and contrived definition you see fit. None of them change who I am or how I view myself. I typically leave it up to the ignorant racists to unjustly label and classify me.</p>

16

<p>Jonri- I know what you mean. Thats why I made sure to get a business administration minor as well. Also, I began as a poli sci major so many of my courses are in the liberal arts and business areas. Also, I used my electives to take courses that would be relevant to law, such as logical reasoning, oral presentation, creative writing, etc. BU requires that you take MANY courses outside of SHA to make the education a lot more well-rounded.</p>

17

<p>
[quote]
How am I giving you reason to doubt my accomplishments? The people who do this are completely unjustified in doing so. Nothing that I have ever accomplished or achieved has been as a result of what my culture is. Rather, its from my own hard work. Again, you aren't the one I have to convince. I learned quite a long time ago that I am who I am. People will always try to classify me or label me as different things, but I am who I am. Use whatever statistical, technical, narrow-minded and contrived definition you see fit. None of them change who I am or how I view myself. I typically leave it up to the ignorant racists to unjustly label and classify me.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You are creating a thread on seeking URM status for law school applications. URM status means you get a bump in admissions (that's why it exists!). It doesn't sound like your family background is disadvantaged in the slightest. Why do you need that bump? It seems like your counterparts in law school would be right thinking you got an unnecessary bump to get into school!</p>

<p>You got me, I'm a racist against whites.</p>

18

<p>
[quote]
My great grandparents are from Poland. They moved to Argentina so only two generations of my family lived there.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You do realize that URM status is legally derived from ethnic/genetic makeup? For admissions purposes you are European/Caucasian. You are not ethnically Latino if your ancestors came from Poland. </p>

<p>When you check the race box on the LSAT/applications you are supposed to put "Caucasian" because you are ethnically/genetically Caucasian.</p>

<p>There is a difference between "ethnicity" and "nationality." For applications they ask for your ethnicity, not nationality. Just like a Caucasian South African can not put "African" on applications, a Caucasian South/Central American is not supposed to put "Latino" on applications.</p>

<p>Similarly an Asian living in Brazil does not put "Latino" on applications, but puts "Asian." There is a legal definition for URM, and it is ethnically based. </p>

<p>Legally speaking you are Caucasian.</p>

19

<p>"When you check the race box on the LSAT/applications you are supposed to put "Caucasian" because you are ethnically/genetically Caucasian."</p>

<p>And how does one know if one is "genetically Caucasian"?</p>

<p>You do realize there are plenty of Hispanics who don't have indigenous genes. . .what category do they fall into even if their last name is "Hernandez" but they have blue eyes and blond hair because through their maternal lineage they are mostly Scandinavian? </p>

<p>Or if your parents are Spanish but you were born and raised in Guatemala?</p>

<p>I think Hispanic is much more hard to pin-point than African-American or Asian. You have to realize Hispanic is not a race like the latter. </p>

<p>So yes DevilsRule is a Latino and if he's faced adversity from it, he definitely has a right to use his URM status to give him a boost.</p>

20

<p>
[quote]
And how does one know if one is "genetically Caucasian"?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>He stated that his great grandparents are from Poland and that his family has only been in Argentina for 2 generations. I think that makes it clear enough. </p>

<p>The rule is 1/4 for URM status.</p>