US HS students looking at possibly applying to UK schools

Bottom line, an American kid planning to do their degree at a top British university needs to be very independent and prepared to be self-disciplined.

The language is the same, but there are cultural differences that may be very surprising to an American student. It is not a British version of here.

I studied in the UK and lived there for decades. Many Americans are quite surprised when they realize the world doesn’t revolve around the US. There’s a lot of head shaking around topics such as guns, the state of US politics, racism, religion, and myriad other issues. It can be shocking to realize that others don’t have the best opinion of the US or Americans.

A word about Oxbridge…

I have a student currently at Oxbridge. Student life there is VERY unlike student life at other universities in the UK. It’s a lot of fun, but it is, to be honest, completely detached from reality. So if your child doesn’t get in, will they be happy at a school where there is no punting and fancy dinners?

I’m not trying to put you off at all. Just be sure your kid is aware. It’s not just going to be three years of larking about.

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Completely agree. The difference in wealth (noticeable in availability and cost of housing and other forms of financial support) is immense. As is the amount of contact with faculty: weekly two person supervisions/tutorials are a world away from the “small group” teaching at other universities (which are far more like the TA experience at a large US flagship, except with fewer lectures and more self-study). Frankly speaking I don’t understand why you’d pick St Andrews or Durham over most state flagships. And the four year course in Scotland ensures that you won’t save much if any money.

Our neighbors are entranced with the UK, with one kid at St Andrews and the other headed to Edinburgh next fall. But it’s mostly social oneupmanship because it sounds more exotic than alternatives like CU Boulder or the University of San Diego and they have the money and air miles to fly over there in business class every few months. And their older kid has had a tough time during Covid, failing many exams and having to take five years.

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UK universities are very happy to take IB students. But look at typical conditional offers and you can see the level they expect: 6s and 7s in the three higher level subjects with mostly 6s at standard level. One of our local high schools offers IB and less than 5% complete the full diploma, maybe 1%-2% achieve these scores.

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Again I think the pros include trying out living in a different country, and a more generally international student population. Our main in-state option happens to be quite close to home, which is not so desirable to our S24.

St Andrews, and to some extent Durham, are also relatively undergraduate-focused. The in-state option has about a 2:1 ratio of undergraduates to graduates, Durham is about 3:1, St Andrews closer to 4:1. I note St Andrews in particular tends to do relatively well on student satisfaction surveys. Different system, of course. But anecdotally, we’ve heard of lots of US kids who have enjoyed St. Andrews.

The in-state option has a fairly traditional public university vibe, with D1 sports being a big deal, and so on. That is obviously not a factor at the St Andrews or Durham. To be honest we have not looked into this at Durham, but at St Andrews we know there are many different levels of clubs in the sports my S24 plays, less so at the in-state university.

In the end, I am not someone inclined to argue one of these options is inherently better than the other. But I do think they are different, and in ways different people could be reasonably more attracted to one or the other.

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This is the phenomenon I have observed as well. Not that it sounds more exotic…but it sounds more prestigious than what the kids US options would be.

If it works out… fantastic. But nobody talks about the kids who flounder academically and what their transfer options look like when they end up coming home after a year.

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That is indeed what Oxford, say, typically requires from IB applicants. St Andrews technically states lower minimum/standard requirements for IB applicants (like many courses say they will allow one HL 5 standard, or two HL 5s minimum). But these days it seems St Andrews often has actual average entry tariffs similar to Oxford. So that implies in practice St Andrews likely is requiring considerably more than the minimum/standard requirements for actual admissions.

Anyway, that of course makes sense. Oxbridge educates something like 1.2% of full-time bachelor’s-level students in the UK system. And their admissions system is not “holistic”, it is very much about course-specific academic qualifications. The interviews, and where relevant special entrance exams, cause a little more variability around entry tariffs at Oxbridge specifically, the personal statement might serve that function a bit at St Andrews, and so on. But generally speaking it makes sense Oxbridge’s requirements, and maybe these days St Andrews’ real world requirements, would be sufficient to get down to under 2% of the UK applicant pool.

Since the “top” (as defined by US News and such) US colleges are mostly “holistic”, there is really an apples to oranges problem with comparing them to Oxbridge and the like. But I think it is worth noting that to get to the same 1.2% of the US pool of full-time four-year bachelor’s level students, you would need to include something like all of the Ivy League, the other 7 or so universities typically identified as equivalent to Ivy League universities (again by a US News-type framework), and a few of the “top” LACs. And actually, quite a bit more if you took out “hooked” admittees with no UK equivalent, like recruited athletes.

And, not surprisingly, the typical academic profile for “unhooked” admittees to those “top” colleges making up 1.2% or so of “unhooked” students is very high, and very rarely achieved. Online conversations self-select in ways that can distort that impression, but depending on your exact definitions, the “average excellent” applicant in the US might well have an academic profile that puts them into the top 1-2% of the US applicant pool overall.

But because US admissions to these “top” schools is mostly “holistic”, there is considerably more variability around admissions decisions for a given set of academic qualifications. As a result, the “average excellent” US applicant who is in the top 1-2% of the general US applicant pool might well be very likely to at least get an interview at Oxford (at which point depending on the course you might have between a 1:2 and 1:4 chance of actual admissions), and get an unconditional offer from St Andrews. Because they in fact are in that rare percentile range by academic qualifications that those universities are looking for.

But, there is no guarantee such an “average excellent” applicant would have similarly good odds at their favorite “top” US colleges, and potentially could be admitted to no such “top” US colleges if they ended up not scoring high enough on non-academic factors. Something that essentially cannot happen in the UK system.

I understand the dangers of overreading this situation. US “college prep” students are mostly prepared for the US college system, not the UK system, and as we have discussed that can be a problem for some US students. Still, as we have also discussed, I think this is a situation that with some care can at least be partially addressed by US students who go beyond a “typical” US college prep curriculum.

And absolutely, that in some sense means you might actually be distinct from even the typical “average excellent” US applicant. Meaning being a top 1-2% IB student in the US is rarer than being a top 1-2% AP-focused college prep student. Not necessarily better, but following the IB path to that percentile means you have been prepped in a different way.

And so IF you are that specific sort of “average excellent” student who has gone beyond just a typical AP-focused college prep approach, I don’t think you should necessarily be put off by the different challenges you will face at a UK university. But it will definitely be different, and not at all something you must want, even if you could have it.

If nothing else, I hope this thread can be an opportunity to talk more about those kids!

From what I have gathered anecdotally, such kids definitely exist. Of course they also exist at “top” US colleges, so I am not sure how the percentages compare. But in addition to that issue, I think you are right to raise the issue of what their transfer options look like.

From what I have gathered anecdotally, at least some seem to have managed to transfer back to their flagship in-state university’s college. Again, I don’t know about percentages, but that to me counts as a fairly good Plan B sort of outcome. And for that matter, it seems similar to the sort of Plan B outcomes I know of (anecdotally) when it comes to kids who end up transferring out of their “top” private college.

But those are impressions based on very limited information. And I would love to have more information shared about this subject, because I agree it seems to be a rather undeveloped conversation online.

The student I know best who is studying in the UK is a “average excellent” student. She is mature, independent and hardworking. She was unhooked and her ECs were solid high school ECs, but without any of the sort of “wow factor” that the top US schools demand from unhooked candidates. She is thriving in the UK.

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If you haven’t seen this site yet, you will probably get a lot of needed info from The Student Room . co. uk

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I’ll second the concept that a good way to know if Oxford is a good idea is whether the kid is obsessed with an academic subject.
(I wouldn’t waste one of the 5 UCAS choices on Oxbridge if it isn’t the case, regardless of general academic excellence.)

Depending on the type of college life he wants, Durham is a good choice because it’s got an actual campus - navigating London on your own with “halls” (residence) spread all over + cost of transportation could be overwhelming in addition to learning how to plan a shopping list, where to shop, how to cook, all in a foreign country, all while competing with kids who were at the top of their class in their specialist subjects and already know how studying in the UK system works.
For this reason I really wouldn’t send a US undergrad to any London university, unless they’re used to living in a big city and can already handle all sort of tasks not typically expected till you’re 20-21 (+) in the US.
(UCL can wait till grad school :p)

Mentioned by @Twoin18, York is an interesting city and university to consider. For a strong student, I can see how it’d be under serious consideration.
Same thing for Manchester or Bristol.
In Scotland, I quite like Stirling as a “safety”: nice campus, easily accessible cities, good student support.

Queen’s Belfast has a 4-year degree in Liberal Arts that guarantees an interdisciplinary small class each semester and at least for the first year allows sudents to choose from several subjects. Second year requires a bit more specialization and choosing 2 or 3 specialty modules, study abroad and/or internships are encouraged for the 3rd year. AAA entry reqs but welcomes (ie., will work with) Americans. The University is excellent for International Relations (with a concentration in “Conflict” that is quite strong, for obvious reasons).

For Engineering, if you can find programs where the BS (or Master’s with sandwich year in industry, which is like a year-long internship) has a 1st year choice that allows students to pivot to specific branches in he 2nd year, it may help with the concern that one is “stuck” in a “course”.

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What an incredibly helpful post! You pretty much nailed why Durham seems more appealing than UCL for our S24, and I think you are right it would make perfect sense to just not apply to Oxford as not really being a good fit.

I actually have a good friend who did a Masters at York and really enjoyed it. I’ll have to look into Stirling too. Edinburgh and Glasgow got on our radar for pretty superficial reasons (high rankings in relevant course “league tables”), but I am not sure they actually represent good fits in other ways.

Incidentally, we are also trying to decide whether to use the Common App for just maybe one or two UK universities (obviously they would have to be on the Common App), or the UCAS. Not a big deal but the UCAS had great pricing for multiple applications, and not all possibilities are on the Common App, so we are open to doing it either way.

Edinburgh (the city) is really easy to navigate and the 2 University campuses are well-defined. I think you could pick either Edinburgh or Glasgow, based on the choices of mandatory and elective modules (courses) for the course (major) of interest.

UCAS v. CommonApp: CommonApp allows you to write a specific essay to StA whereas UCAS would just be a general “statement”.
Using his school email, your son could try and email StA to ask them whether, if he uses UCAS, he could send them a specific essay in addition to the “generic UCAS” statement because his specific “why StAndrews” essay doesn’t really fit into the generic UCAS statement format…
UCAS is more straightforward than CommonApp and you get 5 choices for a relatively low price (I didn’t check recently but it was sth like £35 for 5 choices).

I know of 3 kids who attend/ed St. Andrews. The two that enjoyed their experience were raised internationally before their parents returned to the US for HS. The one student who hasn’t enjoyed the experience as much attended a top top NE BS and has done fine academically, but finds the social experience somewhat alienating. Has made few British/Scottish friends and mostly hangs with fellow ex-pats (largely wealthy). This student is hoping to transfer. A friend’s daughter attended Durham and loved it but attended BS in the UK for high school (after being raised in the US) so she was prepared for the education system and was culturally acclimated (1/2 British).

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Applicants should be cautious about splitting UK applications if there’s any chance of having a conditional offer dependent on senior year AP or IB scores. UCAS is set up for you to accept a firm and insurance offer. Common App is not. Some universities (presumably including St Andrews) like Common App because you can’t then use them as an insurance offer for another school.

Your post reminded me of an American I recently met who is studying at UCL. Her parents are in the Foreign Service so she spent many years abroad growing up. What’s interesting is that she started at Northwestern but couldn’t get used to the “vibe” there, even though her family’s originally from the Midwest. One of the things that disturbed her was having to go through an active shooter drill (or something similar) as part of her NU orientation. So after one year at NU, she transferred to UCL and is much happier studying in the UK.

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I can imagine that would be disorienting - unfortunately, our American educated kids (even here in MA where there hasn’t been a school shooting in decades) are all too familiar with ALICE drills.

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Hi @NiceUnparticularMan

My son applied in the UK last year and got accepted (he’s the math head from the thread twoin mentioned). What made it interesting to him are the combination of his subject with very personal instruction, something that was important to him -albeit he is one of those students obsessed with a particular subject. Also the opportunity to get outside of the very US centric culture for awhile.

He will start his studies in fall so I can’t say much about the experience, but please let me know if I can help with any questions about applications and the visa process etc. Everybody here on cc has been incredibly helpful (and influential) to my son’s journey, I am chomping on the bit to be of assistance to someone else and give back a tiny amount of the incredible help we received.

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One of mine was accepted at Oxford PPE but ended up majoring in physics at Princeton. Has very broad academic interests. In any event, where does your student expect/have authority to work after school? My kid expected to mostly live in the states and wanted friends who would as well.

Thank you so much! Visa process . . . should probably be thinking about that at some point.

Bit of a random aside, but my S24 ended up in a summer course with low enrollment and a UK-trained professor who decided to conduct it somewhat on the tutorial model, including having a one-on-one oral exam at the end. Pure luck but it is giving him a very unusual (for the US) preview of that system (albeit only roughly).

So it will be interesting to see what he thinks in the end.

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Blockquote Visa process . . . should probably be thinking about that at some point.

No need to think about it yet, as he needs to have accepted an offer first to get the necessary CAS number, but if he does go, yes, it makes sense to apply as early as possible, and to avoid some of the problems we ran into. Nothing major, but why not avoid hassle, right?

That course sounds like a great way to see if your son likes the tutorial system. Does he know what he might want to study?