US News ranking of Washington U. at St. Louis

College Search & Selection
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<p>Someone will surely jump on me for saying this, but in my opinion the ONLY thing that binds all 8 Ivies together is status. A student doing his or her homework on colleges is not likely to organically come up with HYPCCDPB as a list of schools. As a personal anecdote, when I was applying to colleges (long before USNWR rankings, obviously) I did apply to a couple of Ivies for SPECIFIC reasons–Cornell because I had spent my summers in the Finger Lakes area growing up and Brown because it seemed unconventional in its approach to curriculum and grading. None of the others appealed to me in the slightest (even though I had family members who had attended Harvard and Yale). I also applied to Northwestern, Vanderbilt and Emory–again, for individual, personal reasons. Some general sense of “status” never crossed my mind.</p>

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<p>Perhaps the student was too embarrassed to mention generous financial aid. Some of the best engineering universities according to USN&WR are state schools. However, few internationals head to them. Although many internationals study STEM.</p>

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<p>“Some of the best engineering universities according to USN&WR are state schools. However, few internationals head to them.”</p>

<p>Huh?</p>

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<p>^ Possible, but I doubt it. It was a pretty open conversation and my husband had just been talking about how he had been drawn to the school largely by the fin aid he received as an international student.</p>

<p>I don’t believe the USNWR rankings were the only thing that brought him there but I do think they were the tie breaker. As a domestic applicant my son had the luxury of visiting the school more than once and he and his college advisor knew kids attending the school and had a good sense of the school’s reputation It’s a lot tougher to assess a college from thousand of miles away and so the rankings became a more important tool for my son’s friend than they were for him.</p>

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<p>Sally305 wrote:

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<p>And, I’m probably dating myself, too, but I’m old enough to remember the old Cass-Birnbaum guidebooks that came out annually and gave pride of place to a group of 30-35 colleges designated “Most Competitive” Nobody thought it was odd that the Ivies weren’t given their own pedestal.</p>

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The Ivy League is an athletic conference. As one would expect with an athletic conference, members are located in the same area of the country. All members also have a long history, with 7 of 8 dating back to before the formation of the United States. Otherwise it would be difficult to make a list of top 8 anything that would only contain those 8 schools. This includes measures of desirability. For example, in the Parchment cross admit rankings, only 3 of the 8 highest ranked schools were ivies (HYP), and the top ranked school was not an ivy (S). None of the previously listed years have had more than 4 of the top 8 being ivies.</p>

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<p>Yes, barrons, it’s a good thing you’re bringing in multiple rankings and talking about international applicants because clearly the OP is concerned about … oh wait, he’s not an international applicant.</p>

<p>If people on here actually ventured outside the northeast once in a blue moon, they’d understand that the vaunting of the Ivies just doesn’t occur as much outside there. I know I sure got an education when I moved out of the northeast.</p>

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<p>My cousin got in to Duke, MIT, and WashU and picked WashU. I am not sure if he was ever actually interested in Duke. He gave me in depth comparisons of MIT vs WashU and really sold me on WashU years ago. The only reason that WashU has taken a backseat for me is the lack of financial aid now. Well, I am not sure I could get in also. But, he had details about how the classes were taught, TAs do not teach the classes, profs were very accessible, even to undergrads, and so on. I do not recall the entire thing, it was a few years ago. He is much older than me too. I think he has probably been out of college more than ten years. I am guessing that someone who spent a lot of time visiting both schools would see a lot more than just ratings and big name appeal.</p>

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<p>Thank you for all of your thoughts and comments. I am the OP, and I have responses/thoughts about a few posts.</p>

<ol>
<li>
Poster Comment:
Only “East Coast provincialists” write WUSTL.</li>
</ol>

<p>My Response:
If you have visited their website, you have written it too. It is: wustl.edu. </p>

<p>2.
My Prior Comment:
I don’t see how they can teach you as much as MIT and Penn without being as demanding and stressful </p>

<p>Poster Comment:
This is dead wrong. The outcomes of learning has nothing to do with demanding and stress. “Being as demanding and stressful” does no guarantee of digesting and inquiring learning materials.</p>

<p>My response:
The point I intended to make with the original comment, and perhaps worded poorly, was specific to WUSTL, Penn and MIT and not a general comment. I expressed to a counselor that I was concerned that in Finance and Computer Science majors, (those are her 2 interest areas) WUSTL students may not be as strong or as well educated, and may have more limited access to internships, jobs and future opportunities compared to students who attended schools with stronger brands such as Penn or MIT (two other schools on the short list). Please note that I am not representing this as a fact, just a concern. </p>

<p>In response, it was asserted to me that WUSTL is a place where you get just as good of an education as Penn or MIT, on a better campus, and without having to go through all the demands and stress that those two colleges put on students. So you have fun, don’t have to study so hard and be stressed out, but you learn just as much, and get the same opportunities. What student wouldn’t want to go to a school like that? The only evidence provided, however, was that if they weren’t doing that good of a job, they would not be #14 in US News.</p>

<p>I think that WUSTL is being oversold to her. I am trying to better understand the degree to which that may be the case. I have no interest in attacking WUSTL generally. Just in understanding the facts to support my daughter.</p>

<p>3.
Poster Comment:
What’s really important is that your daughter likes it, the campus is beautiful, she’s happy with it.</p>

<p>My response:
This is the type of comment that is causing me anxiety because, in my opinion, it is guiding my daughter down the wrong path. To me, that momentary happiness is good, but not sufficient. If she is investing 4 years of life in this college, and I am investing $200K+ (that is a whole lot of money to me), then I want her to come away with something that benefits her for her whole life, and not just those 4 years. In addition, I recently read that 53% of recent undergraduates are unemployed or underemployed in the US. To me that implies that it is very important to choose your school and major thoughtfully, since we aren’t rich. I am fine with appearance being a factor, but I don’t think it should be the primary one.</p>

<p>Any additional thoughts would be appreciated.</p>

<p>Much2learn</p>

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<p>Are you seriously suggesting that she would come away with nothing of value that benefits her for her whole life if she got an undergraduate degree from one of the top 20 or so private universities in the country? Because it’s not an Ivy?</p>

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<p>Except that the college in question, even the admissions office, seems to call itself WUSTL.</p>

<p><a href=“https://www.facebook.com/wustl[/url]”>https://www.facebook.com/wustl&lt;/a&gt;
("WUSTL’s student population consists of representation from over 100 nations. #WUSTLfact - <a href="http://diversity.wustl.edu/“&gt;http://diversity.wustl.edu/&lt;/a&gt;”, “A gift from the Class of 1909 this fountain can be found where on WUSTL’s campus?”)</p>

<p><a href=“https://firstyear.wustl.edu/Orientation/Pages/Fall-Pre-Orientation-Programs.aspx[/url]”>https://firstyear.wustl.edu/Orientation/Pages/Fall-Pre-Orientation-Programs.aspx&lt;/a&gt;
(“Pre-Orientation programs are a great start to your WUSTL experience.”)</p>

<p>[url=<a href=“http://admissions.wustl.edu/apply/Pages/default.aspx]Apply”>http://admissions.wustl.edu/apply/Pages/default.aspx]Apply</a> for Admission | Undergraduate Admissions | Washington University in St. Louis<a href=“%22The%20WUSTL%20Pathway%20contains%20important%20information%20regarding%20the%20status%20of%20your%20application;%20you%20are%20strongly%20encouraged%20to%20check%20it%20regularly.%22” title=“Students who come to WUSTL have challenged themselves academically and personally during their high school years and are required to have earned a high school diploma or equivalent.”>/url</a></p>

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<p>Re “WUSTL”: a URL or acronym is not the same as what people actually call something. But since we are having a virtual chat rather than a real conversation and using all kinds of shorthand anyway, I stand corrected.</p>

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<p>I too am shaking my head at the idea that a college that is incredibly well regarded and a great fit is a “wrong path” for a student who likes it. Don’t happier people achieve more? I would WAY rather have my child in an environment where SHE felt she would succeed rather than one where conventional wisdom said she should go. It’s “just” undergrad, and if she wants the status diploma she could get it for her MBA/PhD/etc. Heck, if I had $200K to spend and I had a child with great stats like the OP’s daughter I would go for a full ride somewhere at a good university and set aside the money for grad school or other future needs. There is no evidence that (outside of a few specific programs) prestige makes any difference to a student who is strong enough to succeed anywhere.</p>

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<p>I can imagine that “Woostul” would be an awkward pronunciation. Unfortunately, around my parts you’d have to use the school’s full name because if you called the school “Wash U” about a third of the people would think you were either talking about the University of Washington or a nonexistent Washington University in Washington State.</p>

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<p>Agree–it’s an unfortunate name and one that poses branding challenges not dissimilar to University of Chicago’s.</p>

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<p>No, BCLINTONK. I did not say that.</p>

<p>I am saying that the reasoning that all that matters is that if the campus is nice and she is happy, that is all you need to know is not sufficient. Both are good things, but not all I need to know.</p>

<p>I want to understand how each school, not just this one, that she is considering compares to the others in substantive terms and not just via a comparison of buildings and whose presentation is slicker. Basically, for each school, I am asking “Why should she come here instead of choosing another top school.” How will she be better off if she decides to study business and Computer Science at your school? That is what I am trying to understand.</p>

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<p>If she is like most people, she will be “better off” if she is happy and engaged. You can look for outcome-based metrics on graduation rates, job placement, admission into graduate programs and so on for each of her choices. I seriously doubt you will find substantive differences among any of them. The point people are trying to make is that because she is considering schools that are all top-notch, you CAN focus on some of the intangibles that go into “fit.” </p>

<p>I am going to guess that your daughter is your first child going through the college admission process. So many of us have seen kids choose their school on the basis of perceived status or some unfounded expectation of better ROI–and then watch them struggle freshman year because they are just not happy. I have several friends who are going through the search and application process all over because their kids want to transfer. It isn’t fun.</p>

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<p>re: naming (from the Alumni mag):</p>

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<p>Everyone in St. Louis has referred to it as WashU since the beginning of time. </p>

<p>Penn has its URL as <a href=“http://www.upenn.edu;%5B/url%5D”>www.upenn.edu;</a> that doesn’t mean people walk around calling it UPenn.</p>

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<p>This is what we mean by East Coast provincialism. You’re assuming that the Penn / MIT brands are stronger everywhere because they may be stronger in your back yard. College brand strength is regional. </p>

<p>Anecdata ahead - I sat next to a gentleman once who had gone to Middlebury and then came out to Chicago, and he said to me, unprompted (he had no knowledge of my Northwestern affiliation at this time) - I didn’t realize til I got out here, that Northwestern is like the Harvard of Chicago. You can get anywhere you want to out here from Northwestern and the Harvard brand name isn’t revered like it is out East. Now, I don’t want to get into a debate with the U of Chicago folks, LOL – that’s not my point. My point is – there is a tendency among folks on CC to assume that the entire country looks upon the “brands” of colleges the same way that people in their own backyards do. It simply isn’t true, though. People in Dallas think well about U Texas, Texas A&M, and SMU. People in the southeast think highly of the SEC flagships. People in CA think well of the “better” UC’s as well as USC. It is regional, OP. You made an assertion that WashU doesn’t have as good of a brand name as Penn / MIT. Well, maybe not if your entire world consists of the northeast seaboard. But in other parts of the country, WashU will have an excellent, excellent name and no one would sit there and think - oh, no, that’s so inferior to Penn. It’s REGIONAL. </p>

<p>And for heaven’s sake, it is a top 20 school; it is ridiculous to think that it is “inferior” in any way. As bclintonk so nicely put it - Are you seriously suggesting that she would come away with nothing of value that benefits her for her whole life if she got an undergraduate degree from one of the top 20 or so private universities in the country? Because it’s not an Ivy?</p>

<p>You’re working a lot here on the “but I don’t know it as well.” Stop. That means nothing. Just like it means nothing that most people in my neck of the woods don’t know Wellesley (where my D goes) or Bryn Mawr / Haverford (where bclintonk’s daughters go). You would think we were stupid if we didn’t send our daughters to those places because “they aren’t as known around these parts.” Well, similarly, it’s a stupid reason not to send your D to WashU (if she’s so inclined) because “it isn’t as known around these parts”). It’s provincial to think that what’s known in your neck of the woods is the be-all-and-end-all. No matter where you live.</p>

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<p>Well, that should make plenty of sense. After all, why would the people IN St. Louis care to add the name of the city they … live in! It’s be the same as SMU having the need to add in Dallas to the name of the school. In the same vein, when people in Texas say UT, nobody feels the need to add at Austing, or think that that someone refers to that washed-out organge from the “other” southeastern UT. </p>

<p>Fwiw, let’s face it, when one writes “I look at WashU” the immediate answer might be “Which one or which school in Washington.” On the other hand, when someone writes WUSTL, there is NO ambiguity whatsoever. All in all, is is a rather unfortunate name for a highly ranked school, as an effective and memorable acronym is NOT available, because of the inherent confusion with the state of Washington. In this sense, GWU was a lot smarter! </p>

<p>On a personal basis, I find the acronym to be silly. My way of dealing with it whenever I compiled admissions’ statistics was rather simple. I always ignored the school – a decision made easy by the fact that the school did not believe in releasing valid preliminary data. It never bothered me, and obviously it never bothered them at all. After all, the school become a household name (well less the real name) because of its relentless unsolicited mailing campaigns. Without looking it up, I think that most of the CC threads about WashU/WUSTL will about “complaints” about the spamming by the school, as opposed to real discussion about the school itself. </p>

<p>And THAT is, unfortunately, what the school is known for outside of its local and regional realm. While the same can be said about plenty of “well-known” schools, it is unfortunate for a school that has been listed in USNews top 20 for as long as I can remember. In fact, without the powerful USNews plus the school spamming affinity, it would be easy to state that the school would be a virtual unknown on a national basis.</p>

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<p>Humm, I am not so sure about how accurate that line is! People in Dallas do know about SMU, but this is mostly because of its past football history and great location in the middle of the Park Cities. The city where it is located was named after the school (University Park.) However, it is a stretch to think that people in Dallas think “well” about it, and especially when compared to the mighty UT at Austin, and to a lesser extent to Texas A$M. </p>

<p>There are a few known Dallasites on this forum. What do you think MOWC would say about SMU? My take is that most people in Dallas think SMU is for the rich kids who did not do too darn well and missed an admission to a more selective school despite being full-paid candidates. The phrase “SMU the school where one pays his fees and collect his Bs” is part of the local tradition. </p>

<p>As an example, graduates from the tony St. Marks, Hockaday, Greenhill, or perhaps ESD, Jesuit, Ursuline, and Cistercian would not consider an admission to SMU as a great ROI on their private tuition expenses. Students of HPISD might, but that is another story!</p>

<p>PS The above is for SMU UG. It so happens that SMU Law is well-regarded in Dallas and Texas.</p>