USAMO an anti-hook?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Massachusetts Institute of Technology
61

<p>Considered in the context of TJ and indeed virtually any group, this guy, Godot, was extremely impressive. His GPA and SAT were both higher than the average accepted from TJ and it's obvious MIT knows the quality of TJ students. I highly doubt his recs sucked, otherwise he wouldn't get into RSI and to be honest I doubt he f-ed up in RSI-because A) he made Seimens and Intel and B) given his past record of acheivement I think that's pretty implausible. My answer? I think that admissions these days are brutal, especially at MIT and co! Look at the other guy on this thread. He was rejected as well! I mean, nothing guarantees you admission these days...just nothing. Or else it could have been a clerical error (lol...I don't think anyone would be surprised at that) :P But seriously, this guy will have other top schools no less impressive than MIT salivating for him to attend I'm sure. If he were to be rejected everywhere (which I doubt given the record of acheivement) perhaps then something is wrong with his app. But come March 30th I'm sure that won't happen. If anyone loses, it'll be MIT in the long run. Like what stupidkid did last year, spurn MIT and then choose Harvard/Stanford.</p>

<p>Also, for anyone saying he was arrogant to be <strong><em>ed when he was rejected, shut up you'd have flipped a *</em></strong> as well. There's no school in the country where he isn't vastly more accomplished than the average student.</p>

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<p>
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Also, for anyone saying he was arrogant to be <strong><em>ed when he was rejected, shut up you'd have flipped a *</em></strong> as well. There's no school in the country where he isn't vastly more accomplished than the average student.

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</p>

<p>Uh, false. It's extremely arrogant to expect admission in a pool of literally thousands of perfectly qualified, amazing students. The most anyone can say is, "I stand a chance." I'm glad that admissions is good at its job, because I've never met anyone at MIT who said, "Yeah, I knew I'd definitely get in."</p>

<p>Also, if you think MIT is lacking in applications with brilliant SAT scores, double fail.</p>

63

<p>This person was faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar much more than SAT scores. In fact SAT scores be damned in this scenario! The only reason I mentioned his grades and SAT's were to counter any assertion that he didn't stand out from the high school he was in, since apparently MIT does look at it. Even as molliebatmit astutely stated, MIT could admit all the kids in the application pool like him and still have plenty of room for "normal students". She even alluded that there was a mark for superstar applicants in the MIT application process, therefore, there must be applicants who at least someone who knows stuff about admissions would say should expect admission in any given year, without being overly arrogant about such an assertion! How many students make RSI (which is run by MIT, is more competitive than MIT, and the majority of whom accepted get into MIT) have all that other stuff and think they at most "stand a chance". So don't even try with the BS that this person is a mere snowflake "in a pool of literally thousands of perfectly qualified, amazing students." Of course no one is going to say "Yeah, I knew I'd definitely get in" but sure as hell there are people there at MIT who would have been extremely surprised, and had a similar reaction, if they hadn't gotten in.</p>

64

<p>
[quote]

Also, if you think MIT is lacking in applications with brilliant SAT scores, double fail.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I doubt that MIT lacks apps with dec SAT scores, however, I think it would be naive to assert that that was Godot's big ticket item. I really doubt MIT has over 50 applicants/yr as qualified as Godot or Devote are.</p>

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<p>
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...but sure as hell there are people there at MIT who would have been extremely surprised, and had a similar reaction, if they hadn't gotten in.

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</p>

<p>Godot described himself as furious at not getting in. Maybe some people would be surprised. Maybe some might even be extremely surprised. But furious? That is arrogance.</p>

<p>I'm not entirely sure why everyone is googoo-eyed over Godot. His profile seems to lack a third dimension - all stats, all scores in competitions with the exception of listing "Young Democrats" on his application. Those of you who know Godot personally and find him a great fellow, good for you. But most of you seem to be assuming his performance in competitions should've carried him right into MIT, no questions asked. And jeez, if you haven't figured out that this isn't how it works by now, I have no idea what to tell you.</p>

66

<p>
[Quote]
But most of you seem to be assuming his performance in competitions should've carried him right into MIT, no questions asked.

[/Quote]

PiperXP, no one said it should have carried him right into MIT. Indeed I even said earlier,

[Quote]
nothing guarantees you admission these days...just nothing

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</p>

<p>That being said, there was nothing arrogant of him expecting admission and even being furious, yes I know that's a strong word, that he was rejected. I mean seriously, you say he lacked personality in his profile-but people lacking personality (at least the way admissions officers see it) cannot get into a program as competitive as RSI. I know you may think its a contradiction that he is not guaranteed admission at MIT yet he wasn't arrogant to expect it, but to be honest with yourself, if you hadn't seen the result, would you have bet that it was at all that likely he'd be rejected? That's why I think he had the right to expect admission, and be furious when he didn't get it, without being arrogant, because he was truly a stellar applicant. I'm not debating that there is a set formula of things to do to get into MIT, I am debating that all the indicators pointed to admission, subtle difference, but it's there.</p>

67

<p>Dude didn't get into a college. It's going to be ok. Please.</p>

68

<p>
[quote]
... but to be honest with yourself, if you hadn't seen the result, would you have bet that it was at all that likely he'd be rejected?

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</p>

<p>YES! He had the scores - that means he'd survive the first round of admissions where they check competency. Then they'd look at what he does. And from here, it's all competitions, which lacks a third dimension to me, like he's trying too hard to fit something and prove himself. Now if he had spectacular rec's that took him outside an academic context, that's when I would have said, "He stands a really good chance." That's not where I would've been, "I'd be shocked if he were rejected." </p>

<p>
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That being said, there was nothing arrogant of him expecting admission and even being furious, yes I know that's a strong word, that he was rejected.

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</p>

<p>Still disagree so hard. It is arrogant for anyone to expect admission, and fury indicates a strong level of entitlement.</p>

69

<p>^I think you are not considering his being a participant in RSI and the relationship between RSI and MIT. The RSI application is similar to a college app with even more essays. RSI has a much lower acceptance rate than MIT (about 5%). So he passed muster with the RSI admissions people, spent a summer with MIT people and probably was given the feedback to expect admission.
How is someone trying to hard to "fit in" becasue he submits his research to multiple competitions? Why not? Seimens and Intel provide opportunities for large scholarships and some really need the money.<br>
I think the kid had every right to be upset and is not arrogant for being so.</p>

70

<p>. . . . one of the more annoying of which is the belief held by some students that they are superior <em>as human beings,</em> <em>in personality</em> or even <em>in character</em> to other students, who are objectively better qualified from a scientific standpoint. </p>

<p>PiperXP, I have to agree with Morsmordre and others, Waiting for Godot pretty clearly seems to be one of the truly exceptional applicants that MIT had this year. He's not just one of a host of well-qualified applicants.</p>

<p>Yes, somewhere in the group of students that MIT rejects despite stellar qualifications, there might be someone who does have noticeable personal faults. And online I might wind up defending him, unknowingly. But I think the odds are actually favorable that there's nothing whatever wrong with any individual applicant in the rejected, but stellar category.</p>

<p>At Thomas Jefferson, Waiting for Godot would have been surrounded by people who expected him to be admitted, and it would have been hard for him to recover from the shock of rejection privately. Now, whether he should have been "furious" . . . not if he understood MIT's current admissions philosophy and read the thread last year. </p>

<p>One of the greatest benefits that CC offers is the opportunity to deduce an Admissions Office's practices by seeing a lot of data (or at least, "postings," since some of it probably is made up). Ideally, this should permit applicants like Waiting for Godot, hopelesslydevote, and piccolojr to avoid second-guessing what they did wrong, and see that they fit into a larger pattern.</p>

<p>I hope that people applying next year will take this situation and the previous years' similar examples to heart. There does not appear to be any level of qualification at which MIT says "This is enough for admissions." Personally, I wouldn't operate that way, for admissions to an "Institute of Technology." It leads to Ben Golub's (Caltech) parody, "What about Nobel Prize? Nobel Prize enuf?" But I think MIT Admissions does operate like that, and they defend it. It does have logical consistency.</p>

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<p>
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I think the kid had every right to be upset and is not arrogant for being so.

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</p>

<p>Upset? Sure. He didn't get in somewhere he wanted to get into.</p>

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How is someone trying to hard to "fit in" becasue he submits his research to multiple competitions?

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</p>

<p>In itself, nothing's wrong with submitting stuff to lots of competitions. But how did he show personality, something beyond being an academic machine? Maybe he has tons of personality and his recs focused too much on his academics - he may have never gotten a third dimension on his application. Maybe he's what he seems to be on paper. I don't know. But in the admissions process, you can't leave this up in the air.</p>

<p>
[quote]
^I think you are not considering his being a participant in RSI and the relationship between RSI and MIT.

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<p>Ok, fair. In that case, I'd consider him more towards the "likely" side of the spectrum. But it sounds to me like he didn't think there was any way that he could be rejected, and that is quite faulty for anyone to think - even Rickoids.</p>

72

<p>Arrogance in an 18-year-old is often self-correcting, as the person encounters a few challenges that can't be mastered. Part of what's amusing/peculiar to me about the anti-arrogance campaign is that there's plenty of arrogance to go around, among the faculty at the top schools.</p>

<p>For example, last week's New York Times carried this news of a lawsuit:<br>
In a contentious Feb. 26 deposition between Dr. Biederman and lawyers for the states, he was asked what rank he held at Harvard. “Full professor,” he answered.
“What’s after that?” asked a lawyer, Fletch Trammell.
“God,” Dr. Biederman responded.</p>

<p>Or to bring it home to MIT, last year Dan Nocera and a Ph.D. student or post-doc in his group (sorry, not sure which) discovered a catalyst for oxygen production in the water-splitting reaction, that operates near neutral pH. It is a big deal. . . . so big that Dan said in an interview:
"For the last six months, driving home, I've been looking at leaves, and saying, 'I own you guys now,'" Nocera said.
Alternative</a> Energy and Fuel News: ENN -- Know Your Environment
Don't get me wrong, I love Nocera. But he doesn't own the leaves! Nor pwn them!</p>

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<p>
[quote]
. . . . one of the more annoying of which is the belief held by some students that they are superior <em>as human beings,</em> <em>in personality</em> or even <em>in character</em> to other students, who are objectively better qualified from a scientific standpoint.

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</p>

<p>MIT is not about admitting the top scorers without paying attention to anything else. Whether one thinks this is right or wrong is irrelevant - it's something to be aware of when applying.</p>

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<p>RSI does not guarantee admission. USAMO does not guarantee admission. If an applicant is furious when not admitted, perhaps he's going through one of the stages of grief (denial, anger, etc.). But if the fury is something else, if it arises from a feeling of entitlement, then it seems to me the individual just isn't a great match for MIT. I mean, let's face it: more than 100 MIT students sit for the Putnam competition. The school already has all the USAMO stars it needs, and half the students were valedictorians at their high schools with virtually perfect SAT scores.</p>

75

<p>Before she started writing children's board books, Sandra Boynton wrote a book called "Don't Let the Turkeys Get You Down." She has a page on "professorial turkeys." On it, a turkey in a tweed suit, with a pipe, surrounded by books, is speaking to a student. To excerpt her words, "In your essay you failed to consider the HUMANISTIC elements of the novel . . . You fell short of a full appreciation of the essential and ultimate value of compassion. You flunk."</p>

<p>I think of this every time I see someone who is super-qualified, but rejected by MIT, quickly being characterized as robotic or one-dimensional.</p>

<p>To a few posters, here and on other MIT threads: if you actually are/were more deserving of admission, due to stellar personal qualities, how about showing that it's not just being "fun-loving" and "a regular person" or even "creative," but that it also includes kindness and compassion?</p>

76

<p>
[quote]
To a few posters, here and on other MIT threads: if you actually are/were more deserving of admission, due to stellar personal qualities, how about showing that it's not just being "fun-loving" and "a regular person" or even "creative," but that it also includes kindness and compassion?

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</p>

<p>Deserving? Who said that people with "stellar personal qualities" deserve admissions? No one "deserves" admission into MIT.</p>

77

<p>Oh, sorry, I didn't realize I had stumbled onto the thread about John Calvin's "Elect."</p>

78

<p>Here's some third hand info (correct me if I'm wrong) on how admissions
for TJ panned out overall.</p>

<p>TJ Physics Olympiad finalists: 8 kids, 5 of whom were seniors, 3 rejected from MIT
TJ Intel semifinalists: 14 kids, at least 3 rejected, several not saying
Top ten seniors on math team (by lettering ranking), at least 3 rejected
TJ RSI participants: 2, 1 rejected, 1 admitted EA</p>

<p>WaitingForGodot was in all these categories. As least he has plenty of company.</p>

79

<p>
[quote]
Oh, sorry, I didn't realize I had stumbled onto the thread about John Calvin's "Elect."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes, that's exactly it! I don't think MIT has an admissions process at all. They don't look at just pure numbers and competition qualification (As they should, because it's clearly the only right way to do this!). They don't look at a person's background, what opportunities they had versus what they took, making sure these people match MIT's mission/are a good fit beyond simply being able to pass the classes (As they shouldn't! These people aren't "objectively better qualified from a scientific standpoint!"). They wave a wand and "qualified the called", as it were. Just like God.</p>

80

<p>
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I hope that people applying next year will take this situation and the previous years' similar examples to heart. There does not appear to be any level of qualification at which MIT says "This is enough for admissions."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Next year's applicants, and applicants in subsequent years, may as well think this way. MIT announces what a "match" is for MIT </p>

<p>MIT</a> Admissions: The Match Between You And MIT </p>

<p>and former MIT admission officer Ben Jones commented on how much is enough. </p>

<p>MIT</a> Admissions | Blog Entry: "Many Ways To Define "The Best"" </p>

<p>My advice to high school students considering applying to MIT is to look carefully at those articles and other articles on the MIT admissions website, consider the issue of "match," and then apply to MIT if MIT looks interesting. But always apply to other appealing colleges, including a sure-bet safety college, when applying to MIT. It appears no-one can be 100 percent sure of getting into MIT.</p>