D is trying to decide between these four. She wants a major that will lead to law school, most likely philosophy. But probably will either double major or minor in business, with MBA/JD as the long term goal. She liked all four places on our campus visits. Clemson has the Philosophy of Law major, and she liked that major. I think she also believes Clemson, due to its ranking, will give her a better shot at law school (all other factors being equal). I tend to agree with her. However, we need to pay for potentially 7-8 years of school, so cost becomes a factor…
Cost wise, NC State is in-state for us at $9K, and they have a good MBA program. I’m not sure about a liberal arts major from NC State getting into a solid law school though. USC offered money, but is still close to double NC State. We’re still waiting on the aid package from Clemson, but I’m assuming it will be twice as expensive as USC. And same for Elon. About twice as much as USC.
Wondering about the Clemson reputation aspect, I called 4 law schools. Two gave me the standard line (useless), but two gave me good info. Of those two, one said they had more accepted from Clemson than the other three, both lib arts and STEM applicants. The second one said they had exactly the same number from all four schools fall 2016. And actually gave me the undergrad major of each applicant.
So which school would be best for philosopy? Which best for business? And which best for both philosophy and business? And any other advice would be greatly appreciated. Decision time is coming up quick!
Generally law schools only care about GPA and LSAT. It doesn’t particularly matter what school you graduate from. If she wants an MBA it’s a different story. It seems to me like business is a secondary interest to your daughter. If it were me I’d go to the cheapest school and get a good GPA. She can decide later if business is something she wants to pursue.
Business is certainly a secondary interest for her. She’s known for many years that she wants to be a lawyer. However, she has good reason to consider an MBA as well. How much difference would it make if she went on for her MBA and then applied to law school, vs going to law school right out of undergrad at one of these four choices? Her first choice would be straight on to law school. But she/we just aren’t sure which of the four would give her the best shot at a solid law school.
None of these universities will be the ticket into law school. The ticket into law school is a high GPA and high LSAT score. Good recommendations can also help (e.g., one from a lawyer supervising her in a summer internship, or from a professor for whom she conducts research). I studied humanities at an insignificant university below any of these you are considering, and yet I got a partial merit scholarship to Emory University School of Law, one of the top 25 in the country. How? GPA, LSAT score and (lawyer) recommendations. Aim above the 95th percentile on the LSAT.
I’m not seeing the point of getting an MBA if she just wants to be a lawyer. I’m not seeing the point of the Philosophy degree either. What I mean is that it isn’t necessary to study Philosophy or any other particular subject to go to law school. Also, it isn’t necessary to attend a particular type or caliber of university for the undergraduate degree. All of these are fine options, and your most affordable – NCSU – is an awesome research university. Nothing wrong with going there, and she will have a strong chance of conducting research for a professor on topics of interest, possibly involving legal issues. She will also avoid student loan debt by going there, which is important if she might wind up taking on loan debt for law school.
If she can go to Clemson without debt, and that’s her favorite choice because she loves that Philosophy of Law major, then it is possible she might thrive there more and wind up with a higher GPA due to interest level. She can do things to help reduce the cost – apply to be a resident advisor in a dorm to get free housing (after freshman year), work part-time for a professor or off campus during the academic year, and work full-time in the summers (preferably at a law-related internship, or one that involves researching and writing). She can also keep applying for scholarships after she is a student, as there are always more to apply for. You didn’t mention languages, but if she were studying a language critical to the US government (as a minor or electives), there are some good related scholarships that could help with tuition and housing (see, e.g., FLAS, the Foreign Language and Area Studies fellowships).
I would want to know class sizes. Philosophy is best taught in small classes with lots of discussion. Maybe Elon would be best for smaller class sizes and getting to know your professors. Otherwise, I think one could get into law school from any of these as long as you have a good gpa and LSAT scores
Thank you all for the replies. I know law school is almost all about GPA and LSAT scores. But I do think the undergrad school does make some difference. That is proven by simply looking at the limited information that is available from a handful of law schools. And by the calls I’ve made to law schools. They’re very careful about what they say. But you can discern some good information if you keep nudging. One gave me not only the number accepted from the undergrad schools I asked about, but also the major of each of those accepted students. Another basically told me to scratch off two from my list and only consider the other two. A third law school told me only three of my four were really feeder colleges to major law schools.
mommyrocks, the Philosophy degree is simply what she’s interested in. And it also is a major hat is supposed to prepare students well for taking the LSAT. I believe it had the second highest scores of any major on the LSAT. Political Science is a possibility for her as well. But she definitely wants to either double major or minor in business. Partly as a backup plan if law school falls through. And also thinking towards an MBA. 4 more years after 4 years in undergrad is a lot. But she is considering it. Also thanks for the comments on NCSU. They also have a solid MBA program there, which is a bonus. With the low cost vs the other choices, it’s tough not to go there. I do need to find out more about their Philosophy and undergrad business programs, as well as internship opportunities within the legal field.
Elon would certainly be best for small class sizes. But I’m just not sure of her chances coming out of a small regional vs a national university. Even though Elon is ranked #1 regional/South. It’s reputation seems to be growing. They’re obviously doing some things correctly there. And they do have the law school. However, D does have a preference for a larger school.
Would appreciate further comments from anyone with knowledge of the programs at any of these four choices. Once we narrow it down, I’m hoping to make a second visit to at least two of the four.
Clemson, SC, and NC State are all pretty similar, large public universities. SC has its own law school so there might be a small advantage to doing undergrad at SC.
I would recommend doing NC State and saving the money. I don’t think any law school is going to perceive Clemson or SC as any better than NC State.
I do not believe average liberal arts class size is going to be huge at Clemson, SC, or NC State. A freshman history class might be large.
I recommend going to be a bigger school, partly because there are more major options should the student change his or her mind later on. Plus larger universities have more name recognition with employers and larger alumni networks which helps when you are looking for a job.
NC State is better academically than SC and Clemson is on par. Elon is good academically, but not at all on the same pedigree as the other three and the social scene is a little questionable (mostly affluent Northeastern kids and it’s heavily Greek life-centered).
Many MBA programs prefer applicants who have a couple of years of work experience after undergrad. It’s not all about the name of the undergrad institution and the GPA/GMAT score.
Thank you all for the replies. It truly is a huge help. We’re really struggling trying to decide. Sounds like most are suggesting NC State. But Clemson, even though it’s smaller, has a top rated career placement center and alumni network. Along with higher starting salaries as well. Both of which are certainly things to consider. We were able to sit down and talk at length with a director of advising at Clemson, while at NC State it was just the typical campus tour. I think we’re going to try to make another visit before a final decision. I’m still trying to determine the strength of the particular majors. So sitting down and talking one-on-one with a Pre-Law advisor or similar at NC State I believe will make a big difference for us.
And any other comments here would certainly help as well.
There are college rankings. I went to UofSCarolina. Unfortunately for us and NCSU, Clemson is ranked much higher. I’m not sure it matters when looking at law schools but I do know that if you are concerned about quality of education she needs to consider rankings and why they are ranked that way.
Well, there is some difference in the rankings. But it isn’t huge. From my calls to law schools, they consider a student out of NC State or Clemson (with the needed GPA and LSAT socres, of course) to be well qualified for law school.
My big problem now is finding out which place has the better philosophy and undergrad business programs.
I have a close relative who is an attorney. She reiterated the advice of other posters here who said that it’s all about the best GPA, LSAT scores, followed by letters of recommendation for law school admissions. She also has said that you should be prepared to write A LOT in law school. Law school costs a lot of $$, so whatever university for undergrad results in the lowest amount of debt would be a wise choice.
I called another law school today and ended up with the Dir. of Admissions. Very nice lady, and after the normal dog and pony show discussion, she gave me a straight answer. They do have preferences for undergraduate colleges. But with the ones I’m down to, no preference. She said they are both feeder schools for good law schools and are both equally qualified. She said her law school attends the Pre-Law Fair (i.e., recruits) at both colleges and both of them have very solid Pre-Law programs and clubs.
I still need info on the undergrad business programs at both schools.