<p>Wheelah, you are my hero. I hope my 14 year old daughter grows to be as mature and intelligent as you obviously are. Wheelah's Mom...you did a great job.</p>
<p>I for one, in this particular case, made it very clear that the conversation here was based on pure speculation. People will talk! Sorry if any of it offends you, but your telling us the likes of "you can't know what it is like here" simply does not help keep you from being offended, nor does it keep us from offering perspective based on our values and opinions. That's just the way it is. The more you tell us how things "really are", the better for all of us. Also keep in mind though, that the 10,000 times more knowlege than us you have of the place is still not the know all tell all of the USNA. It is still just one perspective....obviously a much more personal perspective than anyone else here can offer, but still just one.</p>
<p>I don't believe for a minute that Mids not posting here has anything to do with frustration. I think it is just that for the most part, you folks have waaaayyyy more important things to occupy your time.</p>
<p>Please don't think any of us parents here don't appreciate when a mid adds to the conversation....we LOVE it. Certainly there are better places to take out any personal, negative frustrations with USNA and ranting negatives about the place, especially without supporting details, certainly will likely not be received well because most of us have very positive spirits :)</p>
<p>Preach it, Dad!</p>
<p>Just for the record: It is true that it's been a long time since I've been there (and don't I feel it!), and that things change. However, I was there when this little ball either got rolling or got a good hard kick after a little incident called Tailhook.</p>
<p>If I ever post anything about USNA that is (now) wrong or has changed sufficiently to justify comment, then I invite any and all Midshipmen who may be here to correct me. All I ask is that it be done politely and professionally, as befitting your positions as Midshipmen. Not because I, as a grad, am better than you, but because YOU are better than that. The one time I've had to smack a Midshipman into line here was when he went off and forgot what he was supposed to be representing, and did little more than be rude.</p>
<p>So, if there is a policy in place whereby this female mid will not be charged under any conduct, honor, or other system because she was raped that night, then so be it. I completely disagree with the policy (basically because it sounds too much like a first-grader saying, "But Billy did something WORSE!" when caught), but if that's what's in place, then that's that.</p>
<p>I, too, generally give the benefit of the doubt to the administration. I'm quite certain that the LAST thing the Sup and the Dant (or anyone else, for that matter, aside from the media) want right now is another scandal. What we've been discussing here is our thoughts and opinions based upon the facts in hand, which we all recognize are limited. </p>
<p>I still say none of this would happen if people would learn to keep their hormones in control and drink like responsible adults. It angers me to no end when basic stupidity causes so much damage to a noble institution and the people attached to it.</p>
<p>That is totally correct. If we want to be treated like adults and officers in the navy, we must behave responsibily and as Zaphod put it "keep their hormones in control and drink like responsible adults." Unfortunately we can not go back in time and the Academy is now tasked with "damage control."</p>
<p>imatnavy: you are correct in that their is no way a parent can fully understand or appreciate your experience at USNA, or anyone else's for that matter. And I am sorry if the questions parents, alumni, interested candidates or others pose on here, including discussion, get you so frustrated.</p>
<p>Having said that, try and see things from another perspecitive- that being a parent trying to guide/mentor/learn, an alumist who is proud of their accomplishments and of their institution, and interested candidates trying to get answers- from varying perspectives- as to what to expect. </p>
<p>Instead of feeling so frustrated with our sometimes misguided ignorance, perhaps enlightening us on your personal experience would be better than the ranting- </p>
<p>We all recognize that we are not experts- we don't even rate "novice" standing on many issues- but then again I for one welcome the comments and opinions offered by the alumni, the questions raised by other parents, the varied opinions/discussions that ensue- and even IF the information is not 100%, it still offers food for thought- and eventually someone in the "know" offers corrected information- and most of it done in the spirit of trying to help and assist others with the process.</p>
<p>It is not necessary, in my humble opinion, to discount the comments made by alumni in particular, when time may have tweeked things a bit here and there- we assume that- but at the same time, when they are "reminded" that their experiences are too remote to hold any merit....that only those there now are in the know....it comes across, to this reader anyway, as discourteous at best, if not disrespectful. </p>
<p>Like previous posts, I would welcome input from current mids who can shead light on their expereinces- and I second the parents who remind us that even those are singular perspectives- everyone sees things differently- even those currently at the academy as we speak.</p>
<p>So I guess what I am trying to say is thankyou for your comments, but please try to have a little patience for those of us who are just trying to learn the system, or at least gain some understanding of how things work.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Tell me something I don't know for myself. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>Sometimes I wonder if Mids should be able to sue USNA for false advertisement in the catalog. ;)</p>
<p>Go back and find the thread I started telling parents SPECIFICALLY what you just stated above.</p>
<p>
[quote]
i'm thinking especially of the mid who posted the thread "this is not your father's academy", and got castrated. dad2b2010 was like, "if you can't offer something constructive, don't say anything", and zaphod actually did whip out the "junior" at least once. and yet, the mid was just posting the truth.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>What he posted was rude and disrespectful, and offered NOTHING to support his claims. You and Imatnavy have at least tried to explain how things are different now. There is a world of difference between the two approaches, as there is between the replies.</p>
<p>As I stated above, I don't mind being corrected, but I will not be casually snubbed by some wet-behind-the-ears pleber who has less time in uniform than I have underway.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I was there when that happened, and a good friend WAS THERE (as in "IN the head"). That story was blown completely out of proportion, and little note was made of the fact that she was LAUGHING when they did it.</p>
<p>Believe me, ladies, that the road to equality at USNA has not seen the dishonest and contemptous on only the male side of the argument.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>"Just beginning", eh?</p>
<p>Don't count on it. That began LONG ago. TRUST me.</p>
<p>Parents and Alumni,</p>
<p>I am very sorry if I or wheeler44 came across as disrespectful. Yes, I do realize that I was ranting and I am sorry for that. This case, and especially the other case mentioned on here, hit very close to home for me, so I am sorry if I have let some of my emotions get involved. wheeler44 and I both realize the importance of having an alumni's point of view. My father is class of 1981 so I get that point of view every time i go home! Speaking on my behalf (i dont know about wheeler44) I would be definitely willing to answer any questions about the academy and such (trying to keep emotion out of it), however comments like "she needs to be kicked out" when not all the facts are known are quite infuriating. Again I am sorry for the disrespect perceived by several people, I just wanted people to see that there have been changes made and there are SEVERAL different persepectives.</p>
<p>
<p><snip></snip></p>
<p>Again I am sorry for the disrespect perceived by several people, I just wanted people to see that there have been changes made and there are SEVERAL different persepectives.
</p>
<p>No apology is necessary, at least not to me. You stated your cases with passion but not disrespect. There is a difference.</p>
<p>You just need to learn to pick your words with more care (at most), and that comes with experience. Please don't ask me how I know about that (I have my own collection of black eyes, believe me).</p>
<p>I, for one, am proud of both of you. Hang in there!</p>
<p>thank you for the clarification, imatnavy- </p>
<p>looking forward to some great posts from the woman's perspective!!!</p>
<p>I was told I should check out this thread . . . that I was being accused of being rude, wet behind the ears, and that (presumably being included in this group) I should choose my words more carefully.</p>
<p>This advice from a person that regularly rampages through these threads with words of advice like a bull in a china shop. Choose my words more carefully? I think you should take some of your own adult (?) advice. Talke about not representing the Academy well? The same could be said of you as somebody that has been so warped by the Acadmey experience that he doesn't have any sensitivity to women, minorities, the poor, those less fortunate than him, the environment, liberal wackos, or whomever else is responsible for the ills of the world, i.e. anybody that disagrees with you. </p>
<p>I couldn't go through all the threads that have somewhat inaccurate advice, presumptions, assumption, declarative statements with no support, and generally rude comments that are offered by some on these threads. I don't have time to spend, what seems to this casual observer, hours posting comments like you all do. Don't you guys have jobs? (Talk about being thrown out because a VICTIM has supposedly violated some honor concept .. .I am sure your boss would be interested to know how much time you spend posting on this site while you are supposed to be working. Oh. . . that's right, I am sure you are all self-employed.) I just don't want the incoming class to hang on every word that is posted on here as gospel. Given the infrequency with which I visit this site, it is not alwasy feasible to correct things on a timely basis. My advice is simple: Take what is written on here with a grain of salt. </p>
<p>Look at this thread; you all don't know a single thing about the facts of this case. Yet, you are all sanctimoniously posting about how the woman should be thrown out because she has been drinking (Oh, my! How horrible. You mean that mids sometimes underage drink. Oh my!) She is the VICTIM! She has possibly been RAPED! I guess that doesn't mean anything to you ADULTS! </p>
<p>This site was helpful to me during my research on the Academy. I don't harbor harsh feelings about the Academy; I don't think the Academy is guilty of false advertising, etc. etc. etc. It is what it is. You either make the best of it or you leave. That simple. Everything else is bs.</p>
<p>Now, go ahead and quote my comments so you can attack every single little word. I'll try to check back in about a month.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Now, go ahead and quote my comments so you can attack every single little word.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Nah. Not worth the effort, really.</p>
<p>You've proven my case. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>JAMTex: I don't think any "adult" has said she wasn't a victim. She certainly was and if LO is guilty everyone has said he should be held accountable. Others have also said that if she was drunk and involved in drinking underage that she should be held accountable for that also. We were corrected that she was protected under SAVI. It's a discussion board, nothing more, nothing less.</p>
<p>I think the young man [woman] might have been referring to some of the posts on this thread that have taken on a very harsh tone.
Althought it would take more time than it is worth, just a cursory review includes such comments as:</p>
<p>"Enough. Expell them both and be done with it. Damned idiots ruining the reputation of a premier institution. Should be a keelhauling offense..... under an aircraft carrier."</p>
<p>"I Agree with Zaphod. Protect her name for the rape...fine, but kick her butt out right along with Owens. Done."</p>
<p>"Yeah, and she may be making the whole thing up.... "</p>
<p>These comments from people that assert knowledge of how the place works. Perhaps, and excuse me for putting words into Jam's mouth, but just perhaps the perspective of one a bit closer to the situation allows for a greater compassion that leads to frustration when reading some of the comments on here; from "adults" that claim to know better than a youngster [not being used in the Academy sense of the word] who is wet behind the ears. Oh well, just a morning observation.</p>
<p>And I have the perspective have having already graduated and seen my fair share of scandals, both while there and afterwards, and how trying to be unduly "compassionate" all too often led to the situation becoming worse.</p>
<p>We have two people whose individual behaviors, irrespective of the other's, were horrible. Yes, one was criminal and the other not, but that does not exonerate the other.</p>
<p>But here we are now, being told that since this poor girl was raped, that everything she did wrong related to the issue is forgotten. Where is the equivalent treatment for a male midshipman? What does a male midshipman have to have done to him so that a whole bunch of things he's done wrong are forgotten?</p>
<p>I have three serious problems with this entire incident:</p>
<p>1) A rape. Completely indefensible.</p>
<p>2) A person who knowingly mislead the bartender(s) at a bar, drank underage, and to such an excess that she didn't realize what was happening.</p>
<p>3) A double standard that, while perhaps well-intentioned, simply serves to shield one bad behavior under the guise of another.</p>
<p>I'm sorry, but I have no pity. This was a chain of events that has ended up in this mess. If either of them had behaved differently, then the chain would very likely have been broken. I hold them fully accountable for what THEY did irrespective of the other. The difference would come in the punishment, where I would either expell her or put her on restriction until she made O-3, and would put HIM in the gas chamber.</p>
<p>ALL of this is predicated, of course, on the assumption (dangerous) that the facts are clear. If she turns out to be lying, or it turns out she was stone-cold sober and HE is lying, then the equation shifts. Either way, enough facts have been published to indicate that neither of these two were thinking straight that night.</p>
<p>Take what is written on here with a grain of salt?</p>
<p>Duh.</p>
<p>FYI, many of us work in situations that require results and do not have our days micromanaged. That's one big benefit of having a good education (albeit not USNA) and a background as a naval officer.</p>
<p>Sorry, don't mean to be so cranky. But....I served 8 years as an enlisted woman and as a officer. I don't like it when anyone messes with the reputation of MY Navy. I earned the right to care. </p>
<p>Saying "if thus and such is true, then this should happen" is not prejudging, imho.</p>
<p>Reining In Academy Drinking
Shore Patrol Tries to Curb Midshipmen's Off-Campus Alcohol Excesses</p>
<p>By Ray Rivera
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, April 25, 2006; B01</p>
<p>It's Tuesday night at Riordan's Saloon, a popular hangout for U.S. Naval Academy midshipmen. They muster in their black-and-gold uniforms along the wooden bar, drawn here by $2 drafts and specials on Buffalo wings and chicken melts.</p>
<p>A few do shots: Jager Bombs are a favorite, a syrupy mixture of Jagermeister liqueur and Red Bull. Only one midshipman appears drunk: His jacket is off, his white blouse untucked. He's thrown up once already, one of his comrades says.</p>
<p>By midnight they clear out, due back on campus before lights out.</p>
<p>The Naval Academy is unlikely to make the list of top party schools anytime soon: On a campus renowned for discipline and honor, students are held to a strict behavioral code. Only seniors are allowed to drink on academy grounds, and underage drinking can be punished with demerits, even expulsion.</p>
<p>But the academy has not escaped the problems -- and tragedies -- that alcohol has brought to many other campuses. Last year, a junior accidentally fell to his death from a fifth-floor dorm window after a night of drinking. Another, also intoxicated, fell and died in 2002.</p>
<p>More frequently, drinking plays a role in sexual assaults: It was a factor in two-thirds of the 45 cases The Washington Post was able to review in detail.</p>
<p>Aware of its problem, the Naval Academy started sending patrols onto Annapolis streets last fall to look for drunken midshipmen and conduct random Breathalyzer tests to ferret out underage drinkers. The academy has also launched ethics training that addresses the connections between drinking and sexual assault.</p>
<p>But the problem persists, with the rape case against Lamar S. Owens Jr., last season's starting quarterback, as the latest example. Owens, a 22-year-old senior, and his 20-year-old accuser were both intoxicated in January when he entered her dorm room and allegedly sexually assaulted her, according to witness testimony. Evidence is still being evaluated to decide whether Owens should be tried by court-martial.</p>
<p>The case bears striking similarities to many of the those reviewed by The Post: a victim so drunk her memory is hazy; the alleged perpetrator, usually an acquaintance, insistent that the act was consensual. Investigators often cannot determine the truth: Of the 72 cases reported since 1998, only two have led to convictions.</p>
<p>The military's rape law states that if the suspect knows the victim is drunk beyond the ability to give consent, the act is rape.</p>
<p>Even so, "when you have extraordinarily high levels of alcohol involved, you can imagine how difficult it is for a prosecutor to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that [the accused] knew the victim was so incapacitated she could not have consented," said University of Florida law professor Diane H. Mazur, an expert in military law and a former Air Force officer.</p>
<p>The Naval Academy is hardly alone. A senior cadet at the U.S. Coast Guard Academy is facing a court-martial on charges of raping a female classmate who passed out after a night of drinking.</p>
<p>Nationally, 72 percent of sexual assaults on college women occur while they are drunk, a Harvard study of 119 colleges found. "Women who binge-drink have a higher risk of being sexually assaulted than women who don't drink or who drink less," said Henry Wechsler, a co-author of the study. "This is not blaming the victim; this is saying that losing control in situations that are heavily involved in alcohol is dangerous."</p>
<p>Binge drinking is defined as five drinks in a row for men, four drinks in a row for women.</p>
<p>The message for men, said Wechsler, is "when a woman cannot consent because she's under the influence, the effect is rape."</p>
<p>Naval Academy officials incorporate those lessons into ethics and leadership classes and into the frequent seminars midshipmen are required to attend on sexual assault and harassment. "We talk about consent, decision analysis, how does alcohol affect your brain when you're involved in man-and-woman relationships. What is sexual coercion?" Capt. Bruce Grooms, the school's commandant, or dean of students, told the school's Board of Visitors last month.</p>
<p>The midshipmen's task on shore patrol is to peek into bars to ensure their classmates do not get so drunk that they hurt or embarrass themselves -- or the academy.</p>
<p>Earlier this month, a crew escorted a drunk student back to campus. But on a recent Friday night, the shift was slow. "Not much happens, but you're there just in case," said Rudy Mansell, 25, a senior from Chicago.</p>
<p>Vice Adm. Rodney P. Rempt, the school's superintendent since 2003, said the number of midshipmen who drink isn't increasing, but the amount they drink is. "We have sensed the change in the last two years," he said. "But this is not unique to the Naval Academy. This is common to all colleges and universities."</p>
<p>Although military academies draw from the same age pool as other colleges, few campuses wield the same level of control over students. At the Naval Academy, freshmen are forbidden to drink, even if they're older than 21, and there is no alcohol allowed in the only dorm, Bancroft Hall, or at football games, where midshipmen are "on duty" until after the game.</p>
<p>The stern regulations, however, can have a backlash. Some sexual assault victims remain silent rather than risk punishment for comparatively minor misconduct, such as drinking or attending an unsanctioned party.</p>
<p>"A lot of times, it's not so much their alcohol use or 'Am I going to get in trouble for drinking?,' it's 'Will my friends get in trouble?' " said Jay Michael, a senior who runs a program that assists classmates who want to report sexual assaults.</p>
<p>Academy officials offer no amnesty for these so-called collateral charges. To avoid added trauma, however, they wait to pursue such charges against a victim until at least four months after the sexual assault case concludes.</p>
<p>Defense attorneys, on the other hand, say a false charge of rape can be used to avoid punishment. They often argue that a woman who has engaged in consensual sex on campus-- strictly forbidden -- cries rape to avoid expulsion.</p>
<p>Academy officials say false accusations under those circumstances occur rarely, if at all. "A lot of the time, these collateral misconduct violations would not have come out had the person not come forward with the sexual assault," said Karen Gentile, an academy counselor.</p>
<p>Some have also suggested that the pressures of academy life and the tight controls on students might cause them to cut dangerously loose on nights off. Rempt said he has seen no evidence of that. "In fact, they're very disciplined," he said. "They're top kids, they're smart, but they're still kids."</p>
<p>Annapolis lawyer William Ferris, a 1970 academy graduate who has represented dozens of midshipmen, agrees. "Do I think midshipmen have more pressure on them than typical college students? Yes, I do," Ferris said. "But is there a correlation between that and their drinking habits? I don't see it."</p>
<p>The Owens case has also raised the question of whether the relationship between local tavern owners and the academy has grown too cozy. At a hearing last month, Owens's accuser and her friend, both 20 at the time of the incident, said they regularly used their own IDs to get into Annapolis bars, including the Acme Bar & Grill, where they drank heavily the night of the alleged incident.</p>
<p>"They don't really check" IDs, the friend testified.</p>
<p>Acme owner Roy Dunshee said that is not true. In more than a decade of owning the bar, Dunshee has had only one infraction for serving a minor, despite routine police checks, according to city records.</p>
<p>He and other bar owners say that they welcome midshipmen and that as college students go, they're well-behaved. Some owners say they take pride in catering to the young men and women who will one day serve as Navy and Marine officers, but not to the point of risking their liquor licenses.</p>
<p>"We have to be responsible, because there's a lot on the line," Dunshee said. "We have no interest in serving underage people, because they're a liability in every sense of the word."</p>
<p>April 28, 2006</p>
<p>Navy to Court - Martial QB in Rape Case
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS</p>
<p>ANNAPOLIS, Md. (AP) -- The Navy quarterback accused of raping a female midshipman will face a court martial, the academy announced Friday.</p>
<p>The U.S. Naval Academy superintendent made the decision after the military equivalent of a grand jury investigation was held for Lamar Owens, 22, last month.</p>
<p>He is accused of raping a 20-year-old midshipman in the academy's 4,000-student dorm. If convicted, he could get life in prison, though that punishment is considered unlikely.</p>
<p>The Savannah, Ga., native led Navy's football team to an 8-4 record this season and was the team's most valuable player.</p>
<p>And the plot thickens...</p>