USNews Top 100 Liberal Arts College - Merit v. Need Only

curmudgeon · July 31, 2006, 7:53pm

Can we get an Amen?

Great result, Esquette. Couldn't be happier for you and yours. Did your kid get an 'open" scholarship, or a geographically limited or "major" limited award? Did you notice any benchmark differences between 1/2 tuition, full tuition, and full-ride recipients?

ridethecliche · July 31, 2006, 8:37pm

I applied to Lafayette, and they gave me a 16k a year scholarship for four years with one interim session trip fully paid for. The scholarship is called the Marquis Scholarship, and an 8k a year scholarship called the Trustee Scholarship also exists.

The scholarships are offered to 60 (or 64) Marquis students and 32 Trustee students.

While I decided not to attend Lafayette College, the school is amazing and their agressive financial aid+merit package made it extremely hard for me to turn them down.

Some other schools give merit+need awards. Wesleyan gave me a University Scholarship, which they give to around 10 entering first years with financial need and it basically gives you more grant money as part of the finaid package along with summer stipends and stuff. Basically it's an indirect way of giving merit aid.

Regardless, students who have what it takes to get the scholarships at lafayette should take advantage of them, seeing as they're pretty awesome.

ridethecliche · July 31, 2006, 8:40pm

Esquette, your Son might not have received the scholarship at URichmond because they felt as though he might turn them down, and apparently he would have :-)

They spend a lot of money on those acceptees and they'd rather see it go to students more likely of accepting. Funny how it's all a game, no?

Congrats to your son, I was thinking of applying to W&L and ended up not doing it at the last minute. It's a wondeful school, congrats again!

Esquette · July 31, 2006, 9:00pm

Thanks, Curmudgeon. Looking at Rhodes for #2 son (rising jr), so I'll be following you for a couple years!

S's scholarship is one of the approx 40 GWHS that W&L gives each year. Approx 95-100 finalists. One essay to apply. Consistent with W&L's less is more approach. (Take a lesson WashU!)

All GWHS scholarships are at least full tuition, which we were happy to recently learn include books too. But every finalist who doesn't get it will get some merit scholarship offer ranging from $2,000 to half tuition. Very cool that some of the money comes from GW's original gift to W&L. Some scholarships, but not S's, also include room and board. Do not know precisely how these "plus room and board" ones are determined, but we heard from someone on CC that need may play a role. Still, those kids are more than deserving from what I can tell.

No designated "earmarking" for S's scholarship, but we hear some of the GWHS are earmarked based on geography or interest areas or benefactors. No sense of that during on-campus competition though -- or even now just weeks before he leaves. Min GPA requirement is 3.0 I think.

Btw - S had a great time at scholarship competition -- only one he went to that had current students (incl non-GWHS) interviewing candidates. He loved that. And being so truly welcome by everyone on campus, even being included in nightlife (they invited finalists to explore life on campus). He's also playing lacrosse, so he's sure he's headed for heaven on earth!

Esquette · July 31, 2006, 9:08pm

ridethecliche -- kind of what we thought too. But the scholarship was going to play a big role in his choice, even though they could not know that. And that's more than fair for them to narrow down for those reasons, so it's something to remember in your applications as well. He did visit UR three times over two years and especially LOVED the new science building. Amazing!

curmudgeon · July 31, 2006, 9:26pm

I'm going to post this on both need/merit threads I have going because I think it's important. You might think so , too.

Two things occurred to me today when I was rehashing these two Need/Merit threads with my lovely D.

Unfortunately I set up these threads poorly where the reader has to read both to get all the info. Duh.

And probably more unsettling, we are really just showing a thumbnail of the process we went through from spring of her sophomore year till the accepted the offer from Rhodes. There were many , many twists and turns on the road.

I can't fix the first one and the second one would take far more time than I can give it...but you can access the travels with your search function. I posted trip reports every time. I posted interview techniques and sources of "training". I posted techniques of gleaning tidbits from the campus "invisibles". Security guards, maintenace staff, cafeteria workers, local shopkeepers (ask the school about drinking or the liquor store owner across from campus? Gee. I think I'll ask Honest Henry the Hooch-Guy.) And so on and so on, through-out the process.

Far more important than my efforts is the fact that our local brain trust chimed in, steered me right, showed me different ways to look at things and ...yes, admittedly boxed my ears more than once. When you find threads started by me you'll find times that I stridently opposed their advice only to read a thread months later where I was now championing the same advice I had been so forcefully decrying. We all have the capacity to learn but sometimes I was a little slow on the uptake. Sometimes it took a two by four or a ball-peen hammer upside my head.

One poster had the gall to suggest that my D retake her 1460 and her 32!!! Whateverthehell for? That's top 1% for females. Were they insane or just plain stupid? No. They were right because my D wanted to go to the best school we could afford with merit aid and at those levels the schools weren't sure to be the schools to which she was applying.

Another set of posters, basically the entire CC list of veterans and Dave Berry hisownself, told me repeatedly D needed to apply to some need only schools if there was ANY remote chance of need aid. Around these parts - we ain't poor. We ain't even middle class - we're "mighty well off". I mean Homecoming Queen is traditionally selected around here from the small list of girls with shoes and a purse to match. The directions to the richest kid in school's house start with "You turn off the paved road." When the Superintendent of schools got a new house they let school out early so we could help take the wheels off.

They also told me that she needed to apply to schools that would strike fear in heart of those merit schools she was applying to attend. I flat didn't get it.

Why would she do THAT?

Well, somewhere along the line it hit me.

It may have been when I stumbled on the idea that FA was a floating number at Bucknell, for example, or that preference was shown by FA at USC to steal away a student from Stanford.

It may have been when I was on college A's website where prominently displayed Student Blank was quoted as saying "I could have gone to Harvard. I just couldn't have taken all of 'me' to Harvard." Or maybe it was the fifth or tenth time I noticed in the scholar profile of Student Bob that "He turned down Columbia and Yale to attend here as a Grand Poobah Scholar. 'The opportunity presented here in the Poobah Program was just too great to pass up.' "

Gee. Now I got it. They might have wanted to put my kid in that photo, but they wanted that same caption.

The vets. Mini and Marite, Carolyn and SBmom, jmmom, Alumother, Soozie, Sybbie, cheers, my goodbestfriend Doc cangel who talked me off the ledge many times, my evil twin TheDad, the boy wonder Xiggi - there are so many giving knowledgeable folks willing to help (and I'm only mentioning a few as I have CRS, Can't Remember Squat disease) - when the vets talked, I learned to listen (but as you'll see if you search- never right off).

So - use your search functions. A lot. There are threads on most any topic you can think of about the process but I wouldn't wander into the Alley or Confidentialia College. Those places are truly odd.

Who do y'all have to thank for my burst of energy? cheers said in a post a while back that some folks had picked up their prize and left. She was right. I hadn't paid my debts. See? I'm still learning from the vets.

curmudgeon · July 31, 2006, 9:37pm

Here's the webpage for the scholarship at W+L we have been discussing, includin special limted scholarship , including those restricted by major and by geography. <a href="http://admissions.wlu.edu/web/page/normal/192.html%5B/url%5D">http://admissions.wlu.edu/web/page/normal/192.html</a>

And I just love hearing that about Wesleyan! Preferential packaging at its finest. That will make a difference to some middle income kids for sure because then you can add back in the proferred loans and work study to reduce your EFC "out of pocket". (By removing the self-help contribution the grant goes up @$5K, but they still offer you that $5K in loans and w/s and it then can be used to reduce EFC. Very nice find, ridethecliche. Sure makes the OOP, out of pocket, look better.

Esquette · July 31, 2006, 10:05pm

LOL -- some of us came to the CC world AFTER all the apps were in and scholarship competitions were finished! Now why didn't I hear about CC from the college counselor at my sons' VERY small school (25 in his graduating class)? I am learning what we did wrong (for sons #2 and 3) -- and even right at times, referring my friends and their kids, who thank me enthusiastically.

Sure, common sense and detective work are the basic skills, but finding a database so rich in both is invaluable. So thanks everyone for sharing!

lki · August 1, 2006, 12:10am

The important thing to bear in mind is how blatantly false many of the statements schools make about not offering merit aid are. I know anecdotally from my experience that Pomona, which is on the list of no merit aid granting institutions, offered me a half-ride (~20k/yr) of 'need-based aid' when no other school (mind you, generous schools like Princeton and Stanford) offered me so much as a cent of need-based aid. Conversations with other friends have confirmed that suprisingly large need-based aid packages are a commonplace way to attract top students. Don't let their rhetoric fool you - they'll still do all they can to poach away top students from HYPS and equivalent.

Woland · August 1, 2006, 9:53am

Trinity College (CT) just started offering merit aid. In some cases, full rides.

Dima343 · August 1, 2006, 7:44pm

Just want o add a thing or two about Washington and Lee's GWHS. While it is true that about forty are given out out of the 95-100 candidates, I believe the qualifier is that none are less than half-tuition as opposed to full.

There are seperate regional awards that are seperate from the GWHS awards. Those awards (the Lewis one for WV being one example) are decided upon and given away by local alumni chapters. Winners of regional scholarships may or may not also be GWHS finalists.

As for the specified earmarked awards, your son will find out in the fall if his is supported by a special benefactor. Most of the GWHS awards are specific named awards but that is not decided upon until after the students enroll. After that the enrolled winners are combed through looking for students from a certain geographic area, doing certain activities, planning to study certain things, etc. It doesnt really effect anything except that your son, upon finding out who is providing his scholarship, should send the benefactor a thank you letter and try to keep him informed of his progress.

a_placefortruth · August 2, 2006, 2:17am

In our familys experience, Washington and Lees merit scholarship program is very well-run, although perhaps under-publicized. Weve found that W&Ls scholarships are actually even BETTER than they sound on the website. For instance, W&L often allows merit scholarship recipients to stack outside scholarships on top of the GWHS. And as Dima mentioned, there are some generous regional scholarships separate from the GWHS program.

Also, Ive heard from two different W&L admissions/financial aid officers (in two different years) that in practice, almost all the 100 GWHS finalists are offered at least half-tuition. Please do notice the word ALMOST!!! It would be tragic for any finalist to absolutely COUNT on receiving half-tuition (NEVER put all your eggs in one college basket). Nevertheless, the probability of half-tuition for most finalists appears to be strong. Of course, a substantial number receive full tuition, and a few receive full free rides.

Unlike the merit competition at University of Richmond (see my post on UR below), W&Ls merit awards do correlate quite closely with academic achievement, although of course extracurriculars and personal qualities play an important role in many awards . However, caution is still in order: the GWHS competition attracts so many outstanding applicants that nothing should be taken for granted.

Bottom line: students with outstanding academic credentials will most likely find W&Ls GWHS competition well worth the small amount of extra effort in applying. If the experience of seven or eight applicants this past year is any indication, you are far less likely to encounter disagreeable surprises from GWHS than from the U. of Richmond scholarship competition. If you only have time (and money) for one of those two scholarship competitions, go for W&Ls!

a_placefortruth · August 2, 2006, 3:41am

Please understand that the purpose of this post is not to bash a particular college, but to help spare next years applicants from the severe disappointment experienced by some Richmond Scholar applicants this past year. We heard of at least one kid who was completely CRUSHED by what happened to him this year. Dont know him personally, but I wonder if perhaps he hadnt lined up enough other options, since he assumed (perhaps logically) that his stats would practically guarantee him a scholarship at Richmond

Let me start by quoting Esquette (whose son is NOT the young man I just mentioned). She wrote: S ended up with George Washington Honor Scholarship at Washington and Lee (full tuition for 4 yrs)(his first choice - and ours too amazingly enough!). He was also a Jefferson Scholar Finalist at UVa, Vanderbilt Academic Achievement Scholarship ($7k per yr), but did not even make the scholarship finals at URichmond. So the fact that UR has more scholarship money and a lower admit profile, and declared an initiative to attract science students like my S, did not play out for us. Go figure?

This is starting to sound all too familiar. Esquette, your son is now the 7th or 8th high-achieving student that Ive heard of who had a similar experience with URs scholarship program this year. So did my son, BTW. His stats put him SO high in the UR applicant pool that we were all stunned when he wasnt even chosen as a finalist. However, within a week or two we heard of five or six other students (all white males, but none from the same school) who had a similar experience with the Richmond Scholars program this year. One (a friend of my son) had a 1590 SAT, ranked first in a class of almost 600 (good public high school), 5s on a host of APs, incredible extracurriculars, fantastic letters of rec.and he wasnt even chosen as a finalist. We were baffled. (He was NOT the crushed student, BTW.)

Then a teacher who knew one of these guys called UR admissions to ask WHY wasnt he a finalist? The reply: He just wasnt diverse enough. Shortly after that, I saw the stats of a few of the students who were actually offered the Richmond Scholars full tuition award..and most of them had academic stats FAR below the 7 or 8 guys who werent even chosen as finalists. Doesnt it seem strange that these winners had SAT scores 200 to 250 points lower than those of the losers? (The SAT-II and AP discrepancies were similarly bewildering.)

Now, I would vigorously defend URs right to allocate its scholarship money as it pleases. As a private institution, it certainly has the right to use its scholarship funds primarily to promote diversity. However, I believe UR does applicants a serious disservice by calling the Richmond Scholars program an academic merit scholarship program.

If next years applicants bear this in mind, they may be able to avoid puzzling disappointments.

Ridethecliche wrote: Esquette, your Son might not have received the scholarship at URichmond because they felt as though he might turn them down, and apparently he would have :-) They spend a lot of money on those acceptees and they'd rather see it go to students more likely of accepting.

Normally Id agree with RTCs analysis, but not this time. Several of these students had expressed VERY strong interestsome almost saying that they would attend if they became Richmond Scholars. Made no difference. (Although they were offered fairly generous NEED-BASED aid...but strictly within the limits set by FAFSA/Profile.)

My conclusion is that Richmond should be regarded as primarily a need-only institution, but one which offers scholarships to 50 students based on unknown criteria, primarily to achieve ethnic and cultural diversity and to correct what Richmond apparently perceives as a shortage of women applicants. (I once poked around on a now-vanished part of the website and found statistics for several years worth of Richmond Scholars: an exceptionally high percentage are international students and/or women. The report strongly implied that these results were intentional.) The disproportionate number of scholarships for women is more than a bit puzzling in light of the shrinking number of males applying to college. But it ought to be good news for women, at least.

I should also mention that about 4 years ago a close friend was named a finalist in the Oldham Scholars competition, which awards a full free ride. (The Oldham is now a subset of Richmond Scholars). At the time, Oldham was primarily a leadership scholarship, but with a heavy academic component as well. A number of the male finalists--including our friend and another guy we knew slightly--were very impressive students. But all five of the scholarships were awarded to women. The two guys we knew accepted merit scholarships at more highly-ranked schools and achieved absolutely stellar academic careers; for example, both were elected to Phi Beta Kappa within a couple of years, both were recognized as student leaders (our friend won a highly-coveted election his freshman year)..... I've always wondered why UR didn't view them as outstanding potential leaders.

Scholarship applicants: Don't take anything for granted! Make sure you have perfectly acceptable back-up plans.

a_placefortruth · August 2, 2006, 3:49am