USNWR Rankings - The Metrics

College Search & Selection
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<p>It seems to me that in these discussions, it is easy to confound fit issues with quality issues. We are applying blunt instruments to compare the quality of very different schools that are set up to fit the needs of different communities and educational missions.</p>

<p>I favor small liberal arts colleges and small to mid-size universities with strictly liberal arts programs (no nursing, business, engineering, etc.) I prefer schools that focus all their resources on liberal education. There are many schools that fit my preferences. There are also some fairly good measurements to compare the quality of just such schools. </p>

<p>Large public universities like Michigan, UNC or Cal offer a broader mix of undergraduate programs to fit various needs. Each of them has a college of arts and sciences that seems to offer an education very similar in features to what one would get at a private LAC or Ivy League school. Is the education similar in quality? I suspect that it is, but it is a little hard to measure objectively due to the bluntness of the measurements. Data on class size, admissions profiles, faculty salaries, PhD production, etc., are rarely available for the honors colleges alone. So objective comparison is difficult. </p>

<p>As I read through this thread, I’m more convinced than I was before that the measurements need to be improved to support informed choices.</p>

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<p>“4. Enough with your observations about your college experiences almost two decades ago. They’re not a proxy for what goes on today any more than mine might be. Heck, during your time back in the early/mid 1990s, Michigan was still a state with a functioning economy. As we’ve seen, the world changes and even in academia as many colleges have seen their competitive position change over the last two decades.”</p>

<p>Hawkette, I graduated from Michigan 14 years ago, not 2 decades ago. Universities may change a little over 14 years, but they do not change radically. This said, Michigan has changed radically for the better in some ways since 1996.</p>

<p>For instance, since I graduated, Michigan has led the nation in endowment development. In 1996, Michigan’s endowment stood at $1.4 billion (not among the top 15 in the nation). Today, Michigan’s endowment stands at $6 billion, making it the 6th largest endowment in the nation. I challenge you to name a top 30 university that has developped its endowment to the degree Michigan has. </p>

<p><a href=“Page not Found”>Page not Found;

<p>[List</a> of colleges and universities in the United States by endowment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colleges_and_universities_in_the_United_States_by_endowment]List”>List of colleges and universities in the United States by endowment - Wikipedia)</p>

<p>According to the USNWR selectivity ranking, Michigan was not among the 30 most selective universities in 1996. According to the 2010 USNWR selectivity ranking, Michigan was #24. That’s not a major change, but it is an improvement. Of course, with Michigan being one of the last top 30 universities to finally join the Common Application in the fall of 2010, I think one can safely assume that Michigan’s selectivity will further be enhanced in coming years, although I do not believe selectivity improves the quality of a university.</p>

<p>In the last decade, Michigan has spent more on campus construction and maintenance than any university in the nation.</p>

<p>Michigan’s PA and department rankings have not changed since 1996. </p>

<p>Given all of the information above Hawkette, I fail to see how Michigan is weaker today than it was when I was a student there…a whopping 14 years ago. If anything, Michigan has improved its position relative to its peers over the last decade or so.</p>

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<p>Just out of curiosity Alex, how do you know Michigan has spent more on campus construction and maintenance than any other school in the nation?</p>

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<p>There was an article that mentioned not so long ago. If I recall, Michigan spent $2.5 billion on construction and maintenance in the last decade.</p>

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<p>I believe Alexandre is referring to this article:</p>

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<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/31/realestate/commercial/31michigan.html[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/31/realestate/commercial/31michigan.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>bc,
Based on your latest post (# 239), we agree on a lot. It has never been my contention that a student can’t have a quality experience at U Michigan or many of the nation’s State Us and particularly in the setting that an Honors College can offer. I think that you are confusing my conclusions on overall institutions with what can be available to an individual student at one of these State Universities. </p>

<p>Heck, I like Honors Colleges and have posted favorably on places like Penn State’s Schreyers Honors College which I think is very similar in student quality, educational quality and opportunity available to the Honors Program at U Michigan. Even more so, if a student can get a full ride to one of the top publics (eg, something like the Jefferson at U Virginia or the Robertson at U North Carolina), then this is an enormously attractive offer that often is superior to anything out there. If I’m somehow coming across as dinging those opportunities, then I apologize for that is certainly not how I see it. </p>

<p>Btw, for the non-academic aspect (fit) of college selection, compared to what a student can find at a major public vs any of the Ivies, I actually like the major public’s non-classroom advantages. In many cases, the differences can be quite large, resulting in much higher quality of life for the undergraduate student. I have often argued that this element of college life, representing 150+ hours per week out of the classroom, is not sufficiently weighed by prospective college students. </p>

<p>Finally, one question on U Michigan. I have tried to learn more about how strong the Honors program and students are but have had difficulty finding the answers. Do you have any data on the numbers of students, their classifications, their enrollment by college (Ross, engineering, etc.)?</p>

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<p>That’s a large program alright, but it doesn’t say it is the largest, just among the largest. A quibble, I know.</p>

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<p>fallenchemist, it was in another article that I read it was the largest. Not that it matters, whether it is the largest or one of the largest, clearly Michigan has done much to improve since I graduated 14 years ago.</p>

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<p>No engineers or Ross students are in the honors college at Michigan as far as I know. But they’re basically honors colleges themselves as it’s much more selective. At least, when I was accepted to the engineering school, they told me I couldn’t be in the honors college as well. Ross you don’t get into until your sophomore year (unless you’re one of the few pre-admits). So, you could be in the honors college until then, at which point I’d assume you are no longer when you enroll in Ross. Basically, I think the honors colleges is limited to LSA. Although I have no idea about kinesiology, architecture, education, etc. but I’d think that if you’re in one of those schools, you can’t be in the honors college. A few years ago, to get into the honors college at Michigan you needed a 32 on the ACT or above and something like a GPA of 3.8. You could appeal if you were slightly below, though. (I know somebody who did and got in.) Not sure if the requirements have changed since then. But certainly the quality of students in the Michigan honors program is very high.</p>

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<p>“Finally, one question on U Michigan. I have tried to learn more about how strong the Honors program and students are but have had difficulty finding the answers. Do you have any data on the numbers of students, their classifications, their enrollment by college (Ross, engineering, etc.)?”</p>

<p>The Honors program is purely part of the College of LSA. Engineering and Ross do not have an equivallent program. The average GPA/SAT/ACT at the College of Engineering is 3.9/1380/30 and at Ross (preadmits) is 3.8/1420/32. </p>

<p>Of the 4,500 or so LSA students who enroll annually, roughly 1,500 are asked to apply and 500 are eventually admitted. To be invited to apply, a student must have at least a 3.8 unweighed GPA along with a minimum of 32 on the ACT and/or a minimum of 1400 on the SAT. Students with slightly lower grades and scores are not invited but are not forbidden from applying and can sometimes get into the program.</p>

<p>Although Michigan does not usually publish stats for honors students, I read once that the mid 50% ACT/SAT range for honors students at Michigan was 33-35/1420-1540 (34 and 1480 being the mean) and the mid 50% unweighed GPA was 3.9-4.0.</p>

<p>[Honors</a> - University of Michigan](<a href=“http://www.lsa.umich.edu/honors/prospectivestudents/faq]Honors”>http://www.lsa.umich.edu/honors/prospectivestudents/faq)</p>

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<p>Hawkette, how come you did not respond to posts 231 and 242?</p>

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<p>Really? Besides class size (where ‘quality’ just assumed, but not proven), please share other measurements…</p>

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<p>So U Michigan’s Honors students constitute about 10% of the entering freshmen?? This is similar to what I’ve seen at other State Us. For example, U Georgia has a very qualified group of students in their Honors Program with similarly strong statistical qualifications.</p>

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<p>I hate to have to tell you this, Clinton, but, that could only be true if Michigan started to engage in the “misleading” practices that Alexandre ascribes to gleefully to the privates when reporting scores. </p>

<p>I hope you realize that you cannot have more people with a 1400 combined CR/M score than … report SAT scores to the school. While the enrollment at Michigan is much larger than at Harvard, the difference in SAT reported scores is only 1.5 to 1. </p>

<p>Since it is extremely hard to derive at a 1400 combined score, let’s assume that one adds the 700-800 verbal to the 700-800 math scores. Michigan reported on its 2008-2009 CDS a percentage of 21.5 for CR above 700 and 45.9 for math. Even we accepted the figure of 45% as applicable to the CR as well (a total and absolute impossibility) you would NOT reach the number of Harvard. In order to surpass Harvard 1600+ students who report SAT higher than 700/700, Michigan would need to report more than 75% in each category! </p>

<p>And, fwiw, if there was any doubt about the impossibility of your claim that Michigan has more 1400 scorers than Harvard, please take a look at the 25% percentile at Harvard (690/700) and compare that to the … 75% percentile at Michigan. Remember that the 25% percentile at H means that MORE than 1200 students score above 700 in CR alone. The same figure is probably below 500 at Michigan. </p>

<p>Isn’t a modicum of transparency wonderful when it comes to dismiss fantastic tales! In our neck of the woods, we have a more colorful word for fantastic tales. It starts with bull and rhymes with admit!</p>

<p>PS And please do not come back with superscoring theories or nebulous ACT/SAT corresponding tables. Your statement was about 1400 SAT scores!</p>

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<p>xiggi,
You make a good point and expose the zealous advocacy of bc and alex, but I think that their objective was to write a sentence that included both Harvard and U Michigan in hopes that the na</p>

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<p>“I hate to have to tell you this, Clinton, but, that could only be true if Michigan started to engage in the “misleading” practices that Alexandre ascribes to gleefully to the privates when reporting scores.”</p>

<p>Hopefuly Xiggi, that will never happen. </p>

<p>“And, fwiw, if there was any doubt about the impossibility of your claim that Michigan has more 1400 scorers than Harvard, please take a look at the 25% percentile at Harvard (690/700) and compare that to the … 75% percentile at Michigan. Remember that the 25% percentile at H means that MORE than 1200 students score above 700 in CR alone. The same figure is probably below 500 at Michigan.”</p>

<p>Actually Xiggi, last year, just a hair under 2,500 freshmen submitted their SAT and of those, roughly 30% (800 or so) had scored 1400 or higher. So it is definitely more than 500, but you are correct when you say that it is not quite as many as there is at Harvard. Then again, only 40% of Michigan student take the SAT in the first place.</p>

<p>“PS And please do not come back with superscoring theories or nebulous ACT/SAT corresponding tables. Your statement was about 1400 SAT scores!”</p>

<p>I agree Xizzi. Superscoring is something private universities do! ;)</p>

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<p>Hawkette, Xiggi was not referring to me. I never compared Michigan to Harvard. </p>

<p>And I am still waiting for your response to posts 231 and 242.</p>

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<p>It seems that whenever hawkette is proven wrong, she just starts another thread. Just wait a bit, it’s coming…</p>

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<p>“Hawkette, Xiggi was not referring to me. I never compared Michigan to Harvard.”</p>

<p>Unlike certain posters here who believe their school(s) of choice should be mentioned in the same breath as HYPSM.</p>

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[quote]
You make a good point and expose the zealous advocacy of bc and alex, but I think that their objective was to write a sentence that included both Harvard and U Michigan in hopes that the na</p>