UVa President was fired for telling the truth

[bclintonk]

<p>

@jc40

UVA deserves it’s ranking as the #2 public in the nation – it’s not overrated. Its students are among the brightest. . . . the academic caliber of the student speaks for itself . . .

</p>

<p>jc40,
I don’t think anyone is disputing that UVA gets good students. What President Sullivan was pointing to and others have picked up on is that UVA’s faculty is not particularly strong, especially in STEM fields; but more broadly, there are relatively few fields in which UVA’s faculty would be considered top 10 or top 25 in the nation. Its law, business, and medical schools are exceptions to this, and a handful of other departments, notably English and history, are very strong, but most UVA academic departments are in the #30 to #50 range. This is in stark contrast to UC Berkeley, Michigan, and UCLA where many departments are top 10 and most are top 25. Even a school like Wisconsin beats UVA hands down on measures of faculty strength, especially in STEM fields.</p>

<p>As for the student stats you posted, these are a bit misleading. For example, UVA superscores the SAT. UC Berkeley, Michigan, and I believe UCLA don’t. So you’re comparing apples and oranges. Yes, I know US News does this all the time, but that doesn’t make it a valid comparison. Same with GPAs. Michigan and UC Berkeley report unweighted GPAs on a 4-point scale with 4.0 max, so their GPAs can’t possibly be comparable with UVA’s reported 4.19 average. The comparison just doesn’t make any sense. That said, I won’t disagree that UVA gets strong students. So do Michigan and UC Berkeley.</p>

<p>Oh, and you conveniently seem to have omitted that 92% of Michigan’s incoming freshmen are in the top 10% of their HS class.</p>

<p>One last thing: I’m not sure why you bothered to report admit rates because that doesn’t really tell you anything about the strength of the student body. For some schools the applicant pool is more self-selecting than for others; in Michigan, for example, it’s pretty common knowledge within the state who is Michigan material and who is not, so for the most part students who are unlikely to get in don’t bother to apply. But for what it’s worth, after switching to the Common App for the first time in the 2011 admissions cycle, Michigan’s admit rate dropped to 40.5%, and it will almost certainly be lower when the final 2012 figures come out. They hit another record in number of applicants—41,600 in 2012, up from 38,700 in 2011 which itself was a 20% increase from the previous year-- and they were aiming for a smaller class than in 2011, which came in bigger than expected due to higher-than-expected yield. So I wouldn’t be surprised if their admit rate came in somewhere in the mid-30s for 2012. But as I said, admit rate doesn’t mean very much; if it can swing that dramatically just from switching to the Common App, it can’t be a reliable indicator of much of anything. I’ll bet when all is said and done their incoming freshman stats will be only slightly changed from where they were in 2010 (the figures you’re citing) and 2011.</p>

[GoBlue81]

<p>

According to famous hedge fund manager and UVA Alum Paul Tudor Jones, Virginia’s slipping USNWR rank was cited as one of the reasons for Theresa Sullivan’s dismissal.

If that were true, he is a complete and total idiot. Sullivan was in the job for a whopping two years.

</p>

<p>How about ZERO year as far as impact on USNWR ranking is concerned.</p>

<p>Sullivan took over as president of UVa in August 2010. She was formally inaugurated on April 15, 2011.</p>

<p>USNWR 2010 rank (2008 data): UVa ranked 24th
USNWR 2011 rank (2009 data): UVa ranked 25th
USNWR 2012 rank (2010 data): UVa ranked 25th</p>

<p>We haven’t seen Sullivan’s numbers yet. Are you predicting that UVa’s ranking will drop below 25th in the upcoming USNWR ranking?</p>

[xiggi]

<p>

As for the student stats you posted, these are a bit misleading. For example, UVA superscores the SAT. UC Berkeley, Michigan, and I believe UCLA don’t. So you’re comparing apples and oranges. Yes, I know US News does this all the time, but that doesn’t make it a valid comparison. Same with GPAs. Michigan and UC Berkeley report unweighted GPAs on a 4-point scale with 4.0 max, so their GPAs can’t possibly be comparable with UVA’s reported 4.19 average. The comparison just doesn’t make any sense. That said, I won’t disagree that UVA gets strong students. So do Michigan and UC Berkeley.

</p>

<p>BclintonK. while I do not disagree with the spirit of your post, it might not be as clear cut as you might imagine. Despite the fact that superscoring has been debated ad nauseam on these shores, we really do not have any indication on how the schools report the SAT scores to the rating organizations. Nothing would preclude a school to use non-superscored SAT or un-mixed ACT for admissions, and still report the best scores for the “stats” and press releases. Isn’t that what the FairTest babies do? </p>

<p>As far as GPA and class ranks, should one really believe the integrity of that measure at the UC system when such numbers have been labeled … gross estimates and highly suspect? </p>

<p>All in all, you are correct that the numbers cannot be compared as all the schools in your paragraph seem to be experts at creative reporting. But then, this might apply to the entire landscape of schools in this country.</p>

[sevmom]

<p>Which are the best public universities has been debated ad nauseum as well. UVa,Michigan, UCLA,Berkeley,Wisconsin. They’re all good ,have their strengths (and weaknesses) and have their supporters. It does seem that a couple of posters almost seem to be revelling in the current crisis at UVa.</p>

[Sparkeye7]

<p>

jc40,
I don’t think anyone is disputing that UVA gets good students. What President Sullivan was pointing to and others have picked up on is that UVA’s faculty is not particularly strong, especially in STEM fields; but more broadly, there are relatively few fields in which UVA’s faculty would be considered top 10 or top 25 in the nation. Its law, business, and medical schools are exceptions to this, and a handful of other departments, notably English and history, are very strong, but most UVA academic departments are in the #30 to #50 range. This is in stark contrast to UC Berkeley, Michigan, and UCLA where many departments are top 10 and most are top 25. Even a school like Wisconsin beats UVA hands down on measures of faculty strength, especially in STEM fields.

</p>

<p>+1</p>

<p>Also see: [NRC</a> Rankings](<a href=“NRC Rankings”>NRC Rankings)</p>

<p>CURRENT RANKINGS</p>

<p>THE WORLD UNIVERSITY RANKINGS 2011-2012:
UVA: 135, TOSU 57 (TOSU >> UVA)</p>

<p>TOP UNIVERSITIES BY REPUTATION 2010-2011:
UVA: Not Ranked, TOSU 54 (TOSU >>> UVA)</p>

<p>USNEWS 2012 Best Colleges
UVA 25, TOSU 55 (UVA > TOSU)</p>

<p>The Washington Monthly 2011
UVA 53, TOSU 42 (TOSU > UVA)</p>

<p>World’s Best Universities: Top 400:
UVA: 126, TOSU 111 (TOSU > or = UVA) </p>

<p>

"Sullivan’s Academic Strategy memo, obtained by The Washington Post, was written in comparatively candid terms and identified five areas of broad concern.</p>

<p>First, a siloed budgeting model that frustrates innovation and collaboration. Second, a projection that fully half of the U-Va. faculty will depart by 2020, mainly because of retirement. Third, a “reputation gap”: In many academic areas, Sullivan suggests, the university is “reputed to be better than we actually are.” Fourth, the “fragile” Top 10 stature of many university departments and professional schools, driven by a precariously small number of actual academic stars."

</p>

<p>Source: [U-Va&lt;/a&gt;. board: President Teresa Sullivan’s removal came after an “extended” talk over school’s health - The Washington Post](<a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/u-va-board-president-teresa-sullivans-removal-came-after-an-extended-talk-over-schools-health/2012/06/13/gJQAV1E9aV_story.html]U-Va”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/u-va-board-president-teresa-sullivans-removal-came-after-an-extended-talk-over-schools-health/2012/06/13/gJQAV1E9aV_story.html)</p>

<p>

It does seem that a couple of posters almost seem to be revelling in the current crisis at UVa.

</p>

<p>Me!! Guilty as charged!! :(</p>

[sevmom]

<p>Well, Sparkeye,maybe i should have included TOSU in with my grouping of UVa,Michigan,UCLA,Berkeley, and Wisconsin. Sorry! But I had to stop somewhere.</p>

[goldenboy8784]

<p>UVA attracts much stronger students who are on average, much more successful postgraduation, than OSU students which is why UVA has a stronger reputation. No one in the real world cares about faculty membership in NAS/NAE/whatever. People judge schools by selectivity and undergraduate outcomes.</p>

[Sparkeye7]

<p>@sevmom,</p>

<p>No, for undergrad, UVA is currently > tOSU imho.
Nonetheless, academically as a whole (undergrad+graduate+research+global reputation), Wisconsin & Texas are certain head and shoulder above UVA imho!! </p>

<p>For tOSU, the key word is 2020 based on its academic strategic plan</p>

<p>Year / Acceptance Rate / # of Applicants / 50% ACT</p>

<p>2012 50% 33,000, 27-31 (Approximation, pending on official CDS release)
2013 45% 40,000 (Common App 1st yr with 25% enrollment increase), ACT 28-32 Projection
2014 42% 44,000 (2nd year Common App with 10% applicant increase), ACT 28-33 Projection
2015 40% 47,000 (3rd year Common App with 7% applicant increase), ACT 29-33 Projection</p>

[UCBChemEGrad]

<p>^ If we’re talking about faculty strength, UVA doesn’t do too bad in that old list from Rutgers barrons posted. </p>

<p>UVA had 49 faculty members with academy membership…while tOSU had 28. </p>

<p>Berkeley had over 400 though. ;)</p>

[Sparkeye7]

<p>

UVA had 49 faculty members with academy membership…while tOSU had 28.

</p>

<p>I agreed, UCBChemEGrad!! Except, as I pointed out earlier to barrons’ list of 2007 (prior to Gee’s return) which is where you derived the number of 49 for UVA, tOSU is currently at 48 (not counting Gee himself), which shows they are roughly equal at present, 2012. However, by 2020, half of UVA’s faculties will be retiring according to Sullivan, and budget to replace these talents seems to be tight. OTOH, not only is tOSU replacing roughly 250 faculties annually either due to retirement or leaving, the school is also currently hiring 300 more faculties with $300+ million budget by 2020. That’s where the difference will be.</p>

<p>

P.S. barrons’s 2007 list of NAS, NAE, IOM & AAAS needs to be updated. TOSU’s number is 20 faculty scholars short… (Thanks in part to Gee’s heavy recruiting since returning!!</p>

<p><a href=“http://research.osu.edu/osu-research/awardsandhonors/[/url][/quote]”>http://research.osu.edu/osu-research/awardsandhonors/

</a></p>

[barrons]

<p>Most recent RU compilation of many many lists. All major award lists are in there as of 2010-2011 except AAAS members plus lots of new stuff. Have fun. BTW TOSU does very well in one ranking. </p>

<p><a href=“http://oirap.rutgers.edu/instchar/factpdf/Aau11.pdf[/url]”>http://oirap.rutgers.edu/instchar/factpdf/Aau11.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

[jc40]

<p>

UVA attracts much stronger students who are on average, much more successful postgraduation, than OSU students which is why UVA has a stronger reputation. No one in the real world cares about faculty membership in NAS/NAE/whatever. People judge schools by selectivity and undergraduate outcomes.

</p>

<p>Agree. 10char</p>

[barrons]

<p>Simple-minded people. Most academics have more rigorous in depth criteria.</p>

[bclintonk]

<p>Just one example. Based on a survey of 300 philosophers worldwide, the Philosophical Gourmet ranks philosophy faculties as follows (public universities only)(2011 rankings):</p>

<h1>2 Rutgers</h1>

<h1>4 Michigan</h1>

<h1>5 Pitt</h1>

<h1>9 UNC Chapel Hill</h1>

<h1>11 UCLA</h1>

<h1>14 CUNY; Arizona; UC Berkeley</h1>

<h1>20 Texas</h1>

<h1>22 UCSD; Wisconsin</h1>

<h1>24 Indiana; Ohio State; U Colorado-Boulder; UMass-Amherst</h1>

<h1>29 UC Irvine</h1>

<h1>31 UC Riverside; U Maryland</h1>

<p>#37 UVA</p>

<p>In this field, as in many others, UVA is perceived by its peers as an also-ran.</p>

[goldenboy8784]

<p>Yes, Rutgers is clearly better than UVA.:rolleyes: The importance given to any college degree is derived from individuals who have actually graduated from such university and not that university’s faculty which usually attended HYP for undergrad and their success or lack thereof defines how a school is viewed. UVA has the highest graduation rates of any public school and its test scores are 2nd behind Berkeley.</p>

<p>If we then assessed outcomes such as representation at elite law, business, investment banks, management consulting firms, and medical schools, you would find that UVA would be heads and shoulders above every other public school save Berkeley and possibly UCLA or Michigan once you accounted for class size.</p>

<p>No one in the real world assigns the same respect to a bachelors degree from Rutgers, Pitt, CUNY, Arizona, UCSD, Texas, Wisconsin, Indiana, Ohio State, U Colorado-Boulder, UMass-Amherst, UC Irvine, UC Riverside, U Maryland as one from Mr. Jefferson’s University. Nobody!</p>

<p>Those schools can talk about their Philosophy department’s faculty or whatever since their undergraduates are fairly mediocre in comparison to a Wahoo. Good for them.</p>

[bclintonk]

<p>^ But you’ll notice, goldenboy, that schools like UC Berkeley, Michigan, and UCLA have students that are comparable to UVA’S, and faculties that are much better.</p>

[bclintonk]

<p>^^ Oh, and one other thing, goldenboy. You’ll notice that almost all private universities ranked ahead of UVA have higher-regarded faculties as well. Here, for example, are the Philosophical Gourmet rankings of private universities’ philosophy departments:</p>

<ol>
<li>NYU</li>
<li>Princeton</li>
<li>Harvard</li>
<li>MIT, Yale</li>
<li>Stanford</li>
<li>Columbia, USC</li>
<li>Cornell</li>
<li>Notre Dame</li>
<li>Brown</li>
<li>Chicago</li>
<li>Duke</li>
<li>Penn</li>
<li>Northwestern, U Miami, WUSTL</li>
<li>Georgetown</li>
<li>Johns Hopkins, Syracuse (same as UVA)</li>
</ol>

<p>Granted, this is just one discipline, but careful study would reveal a similar pattern in field after field, with somewhat different players at or near the top, but a handful of great universities, public and private, consistently up there, and UVA lagging. </p>

<p>The point is, a great university has not only great students but also a great faculty. HYPS are HYPS not only because they attract top students; they attract top students in large measure because of their outstanding faculties. Teresa Sullivan blew the whistle on the fact that UVA has been attracting quality students out of proportion to the quality of its faculty, and that its faculty needs a serious makeover if the university is to be as good as its reputation among the uninitiated, i.e., among HS seniors applying to college. I don’t think the BoV wanted to hear that somewhat old-fashioned message. They wanted someone to run the university like a swashbuckling CEO, slashing costs and dumping academic disciplines left and right, transitioning abruptly into the online university so they could compete, I suppose, with the University of Phoenix which presently dominates that market.</p>

<p>Well, we’ll see what’s left of UVA if they get their way.</p>

[sevmom]

<p>I believe goldenboy is a Duke alumnus. Not sure what affiliation,if any, he has with UVa? bclintonk, I get it that you (as an academic I believe) don’t think that UVa’s faculty is up to par. For you to go on and on about this though is quite interesting. But I don’t consult the Philosophical Gourmet so I don’t have all the facts.</p>

[beyphy]

<p>

I believe goldenboy is a Duke alumnus. Not sure what affiliation,if any, he has with UVa?

</p>

<p>He’s just a slave to USNEWS.</p>

[annasdad]

<p>And, of course, all these faculty rankings are based on their passion and skills for teaching undergraduates - right? </p>

<p>Or NOT!!!</p>