<p>Nova, you don’t need to make things up to make a point. I said,</p>
<p>“Maybe the student who takes a semester off to work, or works one and travels for another is a better educated person than the one who stayed in a credit awarding program for 4 years.”</p>
<p>Nothing ludicrous.</p>
<p>If you can point me to something – anything – supporting your view that (1) the graduation rate for UW students is lower than that for every top tier flagship university because it, unique among those schools, has data showing that its students are becoming “better educated” by taking time off in the middle of their college years to travel, and as a result encourages its students to take mid-college travel breaks, or (2) the university has data confirming that, conventional wisdom to the contrary, UW’s relative lack of financial aid actually leads to “better educated” students than students at top tier flagships and that it’s actually doing its students a favor by making it so they have to work in disproportionate numbers, then I’m all ears (and, anticipating barrons’ response, I’m not just talking only about rich ole’ U-Va but EVERY top tier state flagship). Until then, your arguments are nothing more than those of an out-of-touch apologist for a under-performing university on the issue of graduate rates.</p>
<p>You want to graduate in 4 years you can. You don’t you don’t. So what? it’s really an individual decision. There is nothing UW does to make your choice. There is no data showing the UW hinders graduation except some class access issues that have been resolved and are endemic to state and even many private U’s with limited resources. You are looking for some smoking gun that does not exist. The 6 year grad rate is very comparable to other flagships with similar ability students.</p>
<p>But barrons, the FOUR year rate isn’t comparable – it’s far worse – and if it’s not because students can’t get into all of their required classes then it’s because UW’s stingy financial aid doesn’t allow students to go to school without working or students who can afford not to work are not motivated to graduate on time. None of these options is particularly palatable to a parent of a high school senior. Maybe the honest thing for UW to do is to say hey, guess what, we may cost less than some of our competitors but in the end it all evens out, and then some, because there’s more than a 50/50 chance that you can’t or won’t want to get out of here in four years.</p>
<p>barrons is absolutely right. relative to similar schools, getting classes is not an issue at UW. i’m from california and can say that at UC’s and CSU’s my friends have far more trouble getting classes than the people i know at UW. Many of their schools are on the quarter system, but despite registering for a new set of classes every 10 weeks, the situation is so bad that many of them are still forced into 5 year plans after completing their first year. some are not even granted permission to set their own schedules their freshman year. at UW you may not get the classes you want, but if your goal is to graduate in 4 years there are always other classes available to fill requirements. talk to anyone and the only complaint you’ll hear will be that they couldn’t get the class they wanted, as opposed to the class that would fulfill X requirement. the attitude of many UW students is that they want to take classes they’re interested in. that is their primary focus. they enjoy where they are and are in no rush to leave. and this is the perspective of a UW student who’s on track to graduate in 3 years, if not less.</p>
<p>carmelojello, i’m sorry about your friends’ anecdotal experiences but in the end the numbers don’t lie – the UC schools ranked above UW all have better graduation rates. and somehow i doubt lots of students are in a rush to get out of berkeley, ucla, and uc-san diego. </p>
<p>UW boosters really do need to let go of the idea that students are only happy and not in a hurry to get out of their beloved university. some other schools are pretty fun too.</p>
<p>Well NOVA…Stooge was right and so was I and you are WRONG. Found a study from a few years ago that highlights the reasons for delayed graduation. Taking time off was highly important as was taking a little lighter load which I think would relate to the large number of students choosing to work. Fin Aid–not a big issue. Majoring in Education and Engineering also important. For reasons I discussed already. Stick a fork in your search for the Boogie-man within the UW–you are done. Maybe you can find another thing to argue about. Like will football win the B10 this year. Now that might be more productive.</p>
<p><a href=“http://apa.wisc.edu/JLM/TTD2006Sept_Cover_plus_Study.pdf[/url]”>http://apa.wisc.edu/JLM/TTD2006Sept_Cover_plus_Study.pdf</a></p>
<p>Has UW investigated why so many students have to ‘stop out’ (leave school)? That’s the number one factor impacting UW’s graduation rates.</p>
<p>
<a href=“http://apa.wisc.edu/JLM/TTD2006Sept_Cover_plus_Study.pdf[/url]”>http://apa.wisc.edu/JLM/TTD2006Sept_Cover_plus_Study.pdf</a></p>
<p>There you go, barrons… so much for your ugly assertion :rolleyes::
</p>
<p>My golly gee…ENOUGH!!</p>
<p>You naysayers can inanely argue semantics, lies, and dang statistics all year long, but Barrons is right–you can get out of Madison in 4 years with a B.A. or B.S. if you want. To do it, the student needs to be a self-starter, aggressive enough about his/her career goals to seek out an advisor once in a while, and learn the breadth of the ‘MyCourses’ function on the UW-Madison website. That’s what it takes. Geez…come to think of it…that sounds a lot like real life.</p>
<p>There’s no hand-holding at this place. You want to succeed? Make it happen. Take some responsibility. And once other colleges besides CALS (College of Agriculture & Life Sciences) introduce academic mapping to their arsenal, they’ll really be rolling.</p>
<p>What makes you think there’s hand-holding at any of the other huge flagship state universities that graduate a much higher percentage of their students in 4 years? </p>
<p>Are you implying that UW students are lazy and unmotivated compared to their peers who graduate on time at a higher percentage from other schools? It sure sounds like it.</p>
<p>That’s a typical misinterpretation & twisting of my comments, and I don’t appreciate it. </p>
<p>I’m not going to defend UW-Madison against the rest of the Big Ten, and don’t need to. Both my D’s were accepted to UIUC in-state, one with a scholarship, and both chose to attend elsewhere in the Big Ten. I’m happy with their decisions, even if it cost me a little more money. They’ve turned out very well & that’s what counts. Truthfully, I could give two cruds about 4-year graduation rates because it doesn’t pertain to my kids. </p>
<p>Face it, you obviously have had a bone (a skeleton maybe?) to pick with UW-Madison ever since you thought that your child should have received merit money last year & didn’t. I thought my D should’ve received a little chicken too with her stats, but alas, I’ve moved on.</p>
<p>
Then tell us what you DO mean by that. It’s pretty obvious that none of the huge flagship schools hold the students’ hands when they’re planning their academic courses, so why do UW’s students have a much greater problem fitting their requirements into 4 years than do the others?</p>
<p>
That kind of an attitude could explain why UW has still failed to address their exceedingly low 4-year graduation rate. All it takes is for enough people to ignore it and say, “not my problem.”</p>
<p>
No, it was my child’s being blindsided with the extra $7,500 Madison Initiative tuition surcharge AFTER the May 1st decision deadline.</p>
<p>Underhanded action on UW’s part, and the fact that they continue to ignore their low graduation rate problem with the help of accomplices here on the UW forum should give prospective students and their parents pause for thought.</p>
<p>All I was saying…<sigh>…is that at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, IF you have a good head about you…and you utilize the advisors…and you have an understanding of what courses fulfill what requirements…it is ENTIRELY possible to graduate in 4 years. Many, in fact, do exactly that. A 25-year-old woman in the company I work for double majored & graduated in 8 semesters.</sigh></p>
<p>And without firsthand knowledge of those who did NOT follow that road, those that took 9, 10, 11 semesters even, how can I cast dispersions upon those students that did damage to that hallowed percentage, the statistic you choose as THE litmus test above all others to rate colleges? </p>
<p>Are they lazy & unmotivated, as you say? I think not–those types would be unmotivated right back to their home towns in short order. It’s kind of difficult to skate by in Madison, to fly under the radar. Even the so-called easy classes contain tons of reading material. </p>
<p>No, no, I suspect more is at work here than your statistic fixation. Madison’s about shaping people, it’s about being exposed to diverse ideas, it’s about swimming upstream at times. It’s unlike any place I’ve seen, and I’ve seen a lot. All I know is that in one short year it’s turned my D from a naive kid into a thinking, cognitive human being that I’m confident will do well upon leaving the University.</p>
<p>So, in short, that’s what I mean, JiffsMom. End of story.</p>
<p>How exactly does the link that barrons provides prove me wrong and make Stooge right? All it does is offer some reasons why UW students have problems graduating on time and suggestions on how to improve graduation rates. It doesn’t say anything supporting Stooge’s view that taking time off to work or travel, or to put off graduation for whatever reason, is a good thing for either the student or the university – quite the contrary, in fact. </p>
<p>You cannot turn UW’s graduation lagging graduation rates from lemon to lemonade. Sorry.</p>
<p>As for jnm123, do you honestly think that the student body at UW is so much different than the UC schools, Michigan, UNC, U-Va, Illinois, etc., etc., etc.? That UW owns the market are “shaping people,” “exposing to diverse ideas,” and “swimming up stream at times?” If you do, I’d like to see real support for that beyond the singular experience of your one kid, who I bet would have done just as well at any other of these universities. Yet these other schools somehow manage to graduate half their students in four years.</p>
<p>THE litmus test, jnm123? No. An important consideration for those students and their families who do not have unlimited access to money for college? Yes. Look at the other forums here on CC, especially the College Search, Parents, and the Financial Aid forums. 4-year graduation rates are discussed every applications/admissions cycle. It’s an important aspect of students’ and their families’ financial planning for college. Only highly achieving URMs and the very poor are spared, as they are generally subsidized generously. The middle class takes a HUGE financial hit. Taking an extended time to graduate just isn’t affordable for many.</p>
<p>As such, the fact that UW graduates so many fewer students in 4 years than their peer schools sends up red flags. The fact that you seem to think UW students need their hands held to be able to match the achievement of their peers elsewhere also sends up red flags. A little bit off, no big deal. But there’s a pretty big discrepancy between UW and its peer schools in 4-year (referred to as ‘on time’) graduation rates.</p>
<p>And what would make you think UW is the only school that shapes its students, or exposes them to diverse ideas. Heck, UW is one of the LEAST demographically diverse schools amongst its peers.</p>
<p>This taken directly from the UW study that barrons has referenced:</p>
<p>Time-to-degree is a metric associated with several high-priority concerns in higher education,
among them the three As - access, affordability, accountability - and diversity issues. About
access, it is important that each student graduate on time so that space becomes available to
enroll another student. The number of students the University is able to enroll at any time is
finite and there is a public interest in maximizing the number of students who complete a
degree. About affordability, students and their families are concerned about the high costs of
college attendance - both the direct costs and lost opportunity costs and graduating on time
helps keeps the overall cost of attendance down. About diversity, minority students take longer
to graduate and we seek to close that gap. Time-to-degree is a measure of accountability for all
these issues.</p>
<p>Are we really going to keep arguing that nobody should care about graduation rates?</p>
<p>You both have been proven so wrong and unbased in your “arguments” you are now just grasping at straws. You are both now on IGNORE. Good Day. Good riddance.</p>
<p>BTW Harvard thinks taking a year off is just a great idea. </p>
<p><a href=“http://admissions.college.harvard.edu/apply/time_off/index.html[/url]”>http://admissions.college.harvard.edu/apply/time_off/index.html</a></p>
<p>Seriously, barrons? The ignore button? Wow.</p>
<p>Harvard does not favor students taking more than four years to graduate or taking time off during college. Harvard encourages a “gap year” BEFORE college precisely so a student is more mature and prepared to buckle down and graduate on time:</p>
<p>Perhaps the best way of all to get the full benefit of a “time-off” is to postpone entrance to college for a year. For over thirty years, Harvard has recommended this option, indeed proposing it in the letter of admission. Normally a total of about fifty to seventy students defer college until the next year. </p>
<p>The results have been uniformly positive. Harvard’s daily student newspaper, The Crimson reported (5/19/2000) that students who had taken a year off found the experience “so valuable that they would advise all Harvard students to consider it.” Harvard’s overall graduation rate of 98% is among the highest in the nation, perhaps in part because so many students take time off. One student, noting that the majority of her friends will simply spend eight consecutive terms at Harvard, “wondered if they ever get the chance to catch their breath.”</p>
<p>Talk about grasping at straws.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Harvard also believes in graduating their students on time. About 88% of them graduate in 4 years. That’s what… about 40 percentage points higher than UW.</p>