My MIL, a dear woman I loved, was an MD who switched to practicing homeopathic medicine. She was into energy fields and crystals. She swung a crystal over my pregnant belly and said there was a 95% chance it would be a girl. It was a boy.
Well, she allowed for a 5% chance sheâd be wrong, and she was within that 5%.
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This is a genuine question. The sad event of a fetus aborted in 1985 no longer has anything to do with the ingredients of a vaccine in 2021. That fetusâs contribution to the world is keeping many people alive. Is that not a redeeming quality?
Iâm wondering if those who object to vaccines on moral grounds also object to other medical advances that save lives, but which may be considered immoral. HeLa cells come to mind. Certainly the story of Henrietta Lacksâ cells is very immoral, yet how many people would have died without the understanding of medicine that her cells have provided? It doesnât mean we should disregard the cost to her family and the unethical practices of Johns Hopkins, but we can surely appreciate the good that has come from it.
What about animal testing in medicine? Many medical breakthroughs wouldnât have been possible without animal testing. Yet surely thatâs also immoral. (Never mind animal testing on hair and body products, furniture polish, and so on.) Do we stop to think about the animals before we vaccinate our children against polio and whooping cough? Is only human life valuable?
My point is that if we consider these issues only based on morals, is it right to take advantage of medical knowledge that will prolong our lives and keep us and our children healthy? There is a strong argument to say that it could be considered immoral not to do all we can to protect ourselves and others from deadly diseases, especially if one believes that God has given us the wisdom to create medicines and vaccines that save lives.
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Better than the old days when he (and almost all were male and white) would say that his girl would come and check your vitals. 
Iâm thankful there were those curious enough to study the human body wondering if there could be a science to things vs all of it being magic or witchcraft or spirits or whatever back eons ago even though it was forbidden at the time.
Medicine has made some mistakes, no doubt, but weâd have never been where we are now if people hadnât gone, âwhat if,â tried it, and progressed on from it - mistakes and all.
Every field or study in life has made some mistakes, learned from it, and moved on. Itâs those who insist we stop trying - stick with what is âknownâ because âitâs the bestâ - who slow down progress of making things better.
Iâll admit to wishing humans who are afflicted with things themselves could volunteer for trials and automatically be accepted rather than having to be approved. My mom tried to volunteer for a cancer drug trial. She had to go through all the âacceptedâ forms first and those really did damage to her body. Then she wasnât accepted anyway because she was too far gone. WTH? It was her life and a terminal cancer. Why couldnât she volunteer to try something different? Maybe it wouldnât have worked, but maybe it would have. It should have been her choice even if the science wasnât already there for it. Science knew the âtried and trueâ rarely produced cures.
Iâm thankful people are trying these mRNA options for Covid and other things like cancer. With every mistake, more is learned, and eventually we end up âbetterâ than before - or who wants to go back to the medical options of centuries ago?
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To piggyback on your comments, even the pope who is the leader of a very anti-abortion church, has encouraged Catholics to get vaccinated. He speaks of the vaccine being a greater good that came out of something his church considers not-so-good. More lives can be saved from this aborted tissue from long ago.
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@Lindagaf You make very good points, and I canât disagree with you on much of it.
One question for me is, is it possible to provide more ethical options? And the answer is, yes.
In the US, there are no covid vaccines that are completely free of the fetus derived cell line connection. J&J is considered worse because it depends on that cell line it uses continually for its manufacture and its cell lines in proprietary. Pfizer and Moderna also use a fetal cell line, HEK293, but it was only used to test efficacy. For some people, thatâs still considered problematic; for others, including some in the Catholic hierarchy, itâs not a big deal. But not all covid vaccines developed worldwide have that connection, and itâs very not impossible to develop vaccines without them.
As Iâve said before, I also have an issue with how the HeLa cells were taken without consent. I canât deny that medical advances have been made with HeLa as well as the other problematic cell lines. But the question is, are future medical advancements necessarily dependent on cell lines of this type or can we make more ethical decisions going forward?
I would like the option of not having to take a vaccine without that connection.
I would like to support companies that make an effort to produce vaccines in different ways.
I would like to show manufacturers of future vaccines that there is a market for vaccines that a free from the fetal connection. I also think that if more people knows of this connection, there would be more demand for alternatives.
We have to remember this is not just two fetuses. There were many experimented on and there is a current market for fetal tissue for the purpose of experimentation and as far as I know, consent isnât always asked for.
I understand that this isnât an issue for everyone, but itâs still important for people to know about. Unfortunately, for many people, if they hear it mentioned, they assume itâs a conspiracy theory, and are likely to toss it in a pile with other myths about the covid vaccines.
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Iâll also add that I would never think that someone is committing an immoral act by choosing an available vaccinate to protect their own health, their familyâs and friendsâ health, or the health of their communities.
PS. I eat vegan but if I am someoneâs guest, I will eat whatâs put before meâŠwithin reason.
I wouldnât say licensing is insufficient. People will still interpret data as they wish. Even with the vaccine, there is no 100% protection rate.
I know 1 person who refuses to get the Vax because they donât want to be told what to do with their health. They know they would likely die if they got covid. They feel if others want to be protected they can choose the vaccine. There is no changing his thinking.
Another person I know refusing to get the vaccine right now is due to their concern over the efficacy of it and the PREP act. They had covid and their risk of reinfection is lower than the vaccine success rates.
My former PCP (and former neighbor) is now in an administrative position at one of our local hospitals. This was his FB post today (edited for location sensitive identifiers). He posted something similar about 6 weeks ago.
It âfeels likeâ we are getting past Covid when we are out and about right? Unfortunately that is totally not the case. Both hospitals here seem to running at about 10-12 hospitalized patients with Covid up from 2-3 about 6 weeks ago. Most are around 50-65 yrs old and all unvaccinated. People are still on ventilators and dying from Covid.
Vaccination rates in our area are abysmal: County A 41%, County B 31%, County C 39%, etc⊠In Southwest Missouri they are having a huge surge of delta variant right now.
I understand the mixed message from the media. And I donât think we should mandate vaccination- it is a choice. BUT this is health issue not a political issue. You are not more virtuous if you get vaccinated as the left would imply nor are you surrendering your freedom as the right would imply. We can debate over vaccination of kids as well ( though once proved safe childhood vax would get rid a large pool of carriers - though so would rampant infection - via immunity).
It seems to me the choice is binary: one will either be vaccinated or get Covid eventually. And most people who get Covid will do fine (though we do not know yet what the long term effects may be).
But if you are over 60 or over 40 with obesity, diabetes ,or cardiopulmonary disease and you choose to not get vaccinated you have made a poor choice and it could cost you your health or even your life. Every Covid death is now preventable. Please consider getting the vaccine soon. Delta is coming.
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B.1.617.2 (Delta) is already the dominant variant in the US: Regeneron COVID-19 Dashboard
Iâm aware, but I was copying a Facebook post without changing the content except for the county names.
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Seems that the most official statement from the Catholic Church on the matter is here:
Point 2 indicates that they consider use of a vaccine with a connection to an abortion acceptable if there is no option for vaccine without a connection to an abortion (but obviously, they prefer choosing the latter if available).
Point 5 says that âThose who, however, for reasons of conscience, refuse vaccines produced with cell lines from aborted fetuses, must do their utmost to avoid, by other prophylactic means and appropriate behavior, becoming vehicles for the transmission of the infectious agent.â
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I am asking this with all sincerity:
Have all folks who are declining a Covid vax based on morality issues surrounding use of fetal cell lines, also declined rabies, chickenpox, MMR, shingles and Hep A vaccines?
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The answer to that would have to be "yes, wouldnât it? Otherwise that wouldnât be their true reason for declining the Covid vaccine. However, the rabies vaccine would probably not be a problematic decision, due to the terminal nature of that disease and the inability to treat once symptoms present.
I have had the rabies vaccine. Life or death with no other options. I have not had the shingles yet but I would get the newer one because it doesnât have the fetal cell connection like the older one.
My kidsâ vaccine history is a little complicated because my two oldest kids were born and spent their early years abroad in a country that had a very different vaccine schedule.
My two older children had the chicken pox disease while they were small and we were abroad, so I did not have to worry about it for them. My oldest had the mumps while we were abroad, too. In that country they didnât vaccinate girls against mumps and they didnât have the MMR, but my oldest had a measles only vaccine there. They had a chicken pox vaccine option there that was not fetal cell related but my kids got the disease before they could get vaccinated.
When we moved here all kids got all the recommended vaccines, but once I learned about the fetal cell issue I started to be selective after discussing the vaccines and risks with our pediatrician.
All my kids got the MMR on schedule because of the risks of those diseases and the fact that there are no options in this country.
My two younger kids each got one chicken pox vaccine and one Hep A here before I knew of the issue.
The plan we came up with was to delay the chicken pox booster until tween years when chicken pox becomes more dangerous and get titres checked first. Even though one of my two younger kids got the booster by choice after a negative titre, the other has declined so far. I will encourage her because I think itâs prudent, particularly before any chance of pregnancy.
Only one of my younger kids got the Hep A booster so farâher choice before going to college. Our pediatrician wasnât concerned about that one so I havenât worried that much either. I donât hear about Hep A much, but if it came to my attention as an issue, I would consider a vaccine. The pediatrician never brought it up for my older kids and my doctor never mentioned it to me.
The older Zostavax has been discontinued in the US, presumably because everyone who wants a shingles vaccine wants the much more effective and longer lasting Shingrix.
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My experience with those who are vaccine-reluctant due to moral considerations is entirely anecdotal; however, MAC sounds pretty much like all of them. Those who are troubled by the use of fetal cells in the creation or testing are very well researched on which vaccines are acceptable, which arenât and why. Itâs a very big deal for them.
Yep. You arenât off the hook just by declaring your reluctance due to âmoral issues.â You have to walk the walk.
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Looks to be lockstep for vaccination, though I canât say I read more than the last page or two.
Couple reasons why some, including me, wonât do it⊠no matter the inducements or punishments:
- Iâve had the covid. Absent a compelling population of studies proving a natural immunity doesnât trump an artificial one, Iâll skip. There isnât, at this point in time and the arguments that are substituing for them: âmightâ not be as effective, âmayâ not be as long lasting, etc., arenât a substitute.
Americaâs doctorâs informed opinion of a month or so ago, that vaccine immunity is superior, looks to have been pulled out from somewhere unknowable, but is no more compelling.
- The word âvaccinatedâ used to mean an entirely different thing, (like âscienceâ, âthe dataâ, etc., did). Vaccinated, now, means youâre not safe unless almost every other single person is.
Time was, having a 5% chance of catching something that has very little chance of being any great distress wasnât something anyone worried about. Even the neurotic scolds went about their business and left the rest of us alone.
- Many people firmly believe the official response to this has been at least as damaging as letting it wash through would have been and theyâre done with it.
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