Which we may or may not be able to develop in any socially useful timeframe.
I really don’t think we’re taking advantage of this “devil we’ve begun to get acquainted with” period well at all. Lotta staring at the finger instead of where it’s pointing.
I don’t think we have a choice. The vocal minority has made it clear they won’t get on board because they don’t give a hoot about others, are sure they’ll be fine, and no one is going to take their freedom from them.
Hence, I’m now just biding time letting it go through culling their ranks hoping some learn from the mistakes of others, but not holding my breath that it will make much of a difference.
At least it’s their intelligence and/or voter base they’re reducing I suppose. Maybe that’s the way the world is designed to work. In science classes we talk about how nature has survival of the fittest, luckiest, or smartest.
Localities can establish mandatory vaccine programs; see Jacobsen vs. Massachusetts (Supreme Court, 1905). Smith (Supreme Court, 1990) allows for the state to over-ride illegal religious practices in favor of the public good. Regarding the Biden administration’s vax mandate, I can see two areas of legal challenge: 1) federal vs. state authority w/r/t where power of enforcement would properly reside and 2) the use of executive rather than legislative authority.
In addition to unions pushing back on vax mandates, a local NY BLM leader has also spoken out against them.
Good information and makes me feel better about socializing with my vaccinated friends.
thanks @deb922. That’s a easy to understand article that lays it out flat. i’m going to share that with others.
it clears up some confusion i’ve had with the changing CDC guidelines - so it’s a well-timed article for me!
I realize this is a far left source, though it’s talking about a far right interview…
To me, it totally sums up why we can’t get further with vaccines. It’s become too political. This army officer has gotten numerous other mandated vaccines, but would rather resign than get a Covid vax due to “freedom.”
You can’t fix folks who are unable to see the forest due to all of the trees. He’s against only this vaccine due to freedom, but got numerous others most people don’t have to get, though military members do if they’re headed to certain areas of the world. One has to wonder why Covid is suddenly a problem, no?
Personally, I’m glad he’s resigning. I prefer to see intelligence rather than politics at the top of the Armed Forces.
“I don’t want the COVID vaccine and I don’t plan on getting it. But I’ve had all of the other Army vaccines. I’ve had eight anthrax shots. I’ve had the smallpox vaccination. I’ve had them all,” Hague said.
“So it’s really not about whether or not I’ll get the shot. This is really about the freedom of the American people,” he continued. “The right to choose your own medical procedures. The right to decide what’s gonna be injected into your body and what’s not. That’s a natural human right that we can’t take away from people. And I swore an oath to protect and defend the Constitution which affords those rights to the Americans.”
Not clear where you are jumping with this. I was just stating something that I believe is correct. There is no constitutionally protected right not to be vaccinated. States can mandate vaccination to control an epidemic per @bluebayou’s post. Employers can mandate – hospitals can make flu vaccines mandatory for employment so they can certainly make COVID vaccines mandatory for employment. So, it is striking to see people asserting a basic right not to be vaccinated. Whether it can be mandated federally is another issue and whether OSHA can mandate for employers is yet another, but there is no basic, unfettered right not to be vaccinated.
I have not thought about the connection to voting. Have people suggested that there those who choose to not be vaccinated lose the right to vote? I have no problem allowing them to vote absentee. But, they should not be let anywhere near a public facility like a polling place (especially if they don’t wear masks).
I suppose the argument for banning voting would be this. Someone choosing not to be vaccinated is, unless they choose to quarantine, needlessly endangering the lives of others. We ban felons from voting permanently for much lesser offenses against people (three times selling marijuana; robbing a store (except in San Francisco, where it is considered an income-producing activity). But, I don’t see why that choice necessitates losing the right to vote.
Edited to say covid will probably be on people’s minds for some time in the future.
You and I have very similar thoughts. Different states, but similar thoughts.
I was just reminiscing with DH about how my closest friend and I went searching for the H1N1 vaccine for us and our kids way back when because we were traveling to the Caribbean and we wanted to be vaccinated before we left the country. The vaccine was just being rolled out so it was hard to find for all 8 of us. We never had a moment of hesitation to take it and were very grateful that we could. I wonder if the attitude surrounding the Covid vaccines would have been any different if they had been rolled out with less fanfare and celebration of the novelty of mRNA technology? Maybe it makes no difference and there’s a high correlation between the people who don’t get flu shots and the people who don’t get Covid shots. But maybe the attitude of the military, for example, would be somewhat different: less of a stand for liberty and more just another routine vaccination. Or maybe their perception of the lethality of Covid enters into the picture. I wonder if we’d see the same reluctance to an Ebola vaccine for example, if Ebola showed up in the US?
I also agree that, to a certain extent, people are influenced more by personal experience. For example, I know maybe 2 or 3 people who have had Covid. None are close friends. Thankfully I don’t know anyone who has been hospitalized or died from it. I could take the position that I’m pretty healthy so I’d probably do ok with covid. And maybe that’s how many vaccine adverse people think. I can see how people in the military might think that. They’re generally in good shape and I think very few military members have died from Covid. However, I’m a very illness adverse, get a flu shot every year so I couldn’t wait to get the vaccine. That fear factor was and is a big driver for me. Maybe that’s part of the divide: people who don’t want the vaccine aren’t very worried about getting Covid, or dying from Covid, so it’s hard for them to understand why other people are. And then you mix in a dash of you can’t tell me what to do and here we are.
Just a little musing this morning….
Figured it would get flagged. Sorry to whomever is offended.
Not a political response but factual.
People dying is bad politics for everyone regardless of party, at least it should be.
Agree, the virus is apolitical. I speak out of frustration because of all the needless death and economic loss that is happening. In both parties. I don’t want anyone to die. I don’t want anyone to struggle financially. But one can see states abusing use of MAb such that there are shortages for everyone now, or states with such high covid cases that people cannot get routine procedures and are dying without otherwise treatable conditions, or driving across state lines if necessary to get care. I can see fixable solutions to those, so that all people can have a better chance of survival.
I completely share your frustration!!
I got sick now I’m trying with all my might to protect myself from re-infection. I am confused that people get sick with the vaccine. and without it they get sick. while I have antibodies, I am wondering whether to give me this injection
I’m so sorry you got sick from Covid! Thank goodness you’ve recovered. You are actually in a very enviable position. Studies have shown that the best protection actually occurs in people who’ve recovered from Covid (have natural immunity) and then get the vaccine once they’ve recovered. They have the highest levels of antibodies. We wouldn’t want every unvaccinated person to run out and get Covid, get natural immunity, and then get the vaccine because of the risk of severe complications and death from Covid exposure to the unvaccinated. But if you have recovered, you’re in the best position to get the vaccine - your antibodies will wane (eventually go away) following infection, but will shoot up past what people who have received both doses of the vaccine will have if you get the vaccine. If you don’t get the vaccine, your risk of getting sick again is higher than if you get the vaccine. The vaccine will not always prevent you from getting sick if you are exposed, but it will lessen your symptoms and decrease your risk of hospitalization and death.
I’ve never seen a state require a vaccine unless you want to do something - work, go to school, use public services like a rec center. If you want to stay home, you do have the right not to be vaccinated.
Yes, you need to get the vax even if you have antibodies from having had covid. A friend and his wife had covid in the fall of 2020. They then entered a study on antibodies (no vax available at that time) and they were tested quite often. Suddenly the man didn’t have antibodies.
They both got vaxxed as soon as they were eligible.
H1N1 experience not comparable. Only 12k people died. Not that many were vaccinated (as a %), so the anti-vaxxers and reluctant could stay anti- and reluctant. The young healthies were not recommended for vax.