Vaccine reluctance & General COVID Discussion

The fact is you still rely on people outside of your home to allow you to stay isolated as much as possible. It’s not just about you either. Most people can’t just disconnect from the outside world completely. Most of us need electricity, that requires a lot of workers to produce, get it to our hones and fix issues when they come up. If not on a private well most are dependent on water from a municipality that has to be provided by a large group of workers. Sanitation workers need to haul off most of our waste unless you do it yourself of somehow deal with it. If you don’t have enough food for a year then at some point you’ll be relying on others to provide it. I personally don’t provide my own flour, salt, butter, soap, cleaning products, toilet paper, etc.

It’s unrealistic to think that beyond a small portion of individuals that anyone is surviving without outside assistance. Sure, people can isolate more but it’s hard to be an island unto yourself. Our society isn’t set up for the majority to be self sufficient.

I don’t fault anyone for using outside resources. I have worked in-person this whole time to allow the country to continue. Many workers have had to do the same. It’s a rare occurrence that someone can truly isolate.

We can’t predict what we might need repaired and when. Life is complicated. I don’t have a crystal ball. God bless you if you can truly totally isolate. I think you can reduce exposure but in the end you’re relying on others to allow it to happen. Someone has to keep the lights on, the water flowing, the fuel pumping, the food growing, etc.

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That’s a lot of defensiveness and lashing out for one post.

I wasn’t pointing my finger at you in the least. Good for you and your garden! I love canning, and have grand plans to get my garden back into shape - lots of things got deferred when DH got sick a few years back. I yearn to be more self-sufficient and am like you quite content as a homebody.

Not into clothes or consumerism around here. The only thing we do in that vein is DH’s restaurant outings and too much Doordash. But as I am self-employed, cooking time is minimal during the week.

But people out there like me and you find it a lot easier to live the hermit life than others. And not all hermits do it to save others more than themselves. Self-preservation is realistically the dominant motivation- that is hard-wired into being alive.

I have admired your advocacy for your students, often immigrants and low SES with few options. It strikes me that there’s a lot of overlap between those who can’t self-quarantine and that population. Am I wrong in that?

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I just checked where he’s at because I was thinking of calling him. He’s at a museum in his city. It could be an event given the time of year, but I don’t know that. Perhaps he (and likely GF) just went for the fun of it too. Chances are they’re masked because his city is superb with that, but as I said before, he doesn’t live life as a hermit.

He knows full well the risks associated with Covid - and lack of risks for the fully vaxxed and boostered at our age/health.

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I certainly don’t live like a hermit but I mask up when I am indoors with people whose vaccination status I don’t know. So that includes stores, subway, and when I meet with psychotherapy clients in the office.

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Most people don’t have their food stores set up for the winter. I’m not sure most have the space to store 3 months worth of food - certainly not fresh food. If you like to do all of yours and live off of it, great, but it’s not a need. We have frozen food from our garden and deer we eat, but it’s not enough to last us for 3 months if we eat nothing else.

I am a Christian and we don’t partake in the mad consumerist spectacle either - not now and not on other days. It’s not due to Covid. We’re simply not materialistic. Until something breaks, it’s not replaced. I go a long time between clothes/shoes/whatever buying sessions - even before Covid hit. We do it for the benefit of the planet and to have money to do other things like travel and donations to charities we support. We don’t call people out to fix things because H can fix practically anything himself. He does, however, have to go to the hardware store for parts when something needs to be fixed. Someone had to make and get those parts to the store…

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Just as an exercise, try going through the last day’s worth of this thread and marking up professions of “we’re very careful and doing everything we should” that include "here’s the gaping holes in how we’ve arranged that, and how we’ll be contributing to viral spread and further opportunity for viral mutation should we catch the virus along the way. "

Airplane tickets
Going around unmasked
Vacationing in tourist spots
Going out to eat
etc.

The reason I posted that thing about how good it would be if around 70 million more people in this country learned to amuse themselves well at home is the reaction that the post got. The idea that doing so is not “living”, and that “living” requires doing all the above. I assure you, I’ve been alive and well all this time. If I live in a cave, it’s a pretty premium cave disguised as a suburban 3-bed 1.5-ba house with the usual overstuffed garage.

The reason I didn’t say “300 million more” is because so many people cannot. But I think 70 million more can.

My yard measures about 40’ x 60’; it’s not big, and apart from my veg garden it’s also got my clothesline, a composter, two apple trees, roses (which make rose hips) and raspberries. A park and side areas nearby provide wild grapes, elderberries, rose hips, autumn olive berries, and black raspberries. I understand that many people in the US don’t have that much space, and also don’t have access to community gardens and parks that are allowed to ramble a bit. But an awful lot of us do. I had an aerial tour of my city not long ago via a fence company’s software: I was looking for solar panels, but I also noticed that very few backyards are used for food production. Maybe one in 50. This is a part of the country famous for growing food. But most non-farmers don’t do it. Granted, if you want tree crops, you have to think well ahead, but even now it’s astonishing how many suburban fruit trees’ produce goes to waste. Last summer I was on my way to the park when I saw a little sour-cherry tree absolutely dripping with fruit on the edge of turning, and I went to the house and asked the woman – if she wasn’t planning to pick it – if she minded if I did. Have it all, she said, so I did. Fifteen pounds of beautiful cherries. (I brought her back some canned cherry sauce.) I used to get apples the same way, before I had a yard and planted my own trees. Trees require almost no labor, incidentally, apart from their harvest span. Every year, right around the same time, there’s three intense weeks of weekend and night-shift work. Picking, peeling, cooking, canning. And then there’s applesauce all year. Somehow I managed to do this year after year as a custodial single mother nearly entirely responsible for my kid’s upbringing and support; I suspect many more people could carry it off. I did not, incidentally, grow up gardening and preserving food, but frankly the plants do most of the work. Some arithmetic is required, also a calendar, a pressure canner, and mason jars, which are reusable. (You generate a lot less landfill waste and recycling this way, too.)

As for working at home – you know, I did it for years when the kid was little because I didn’t have any choice; there was no backup childcare, and the court wouldn’t have allowed me to move. Nobody was outraged on my behalf back then, even though it was a lot tougher to make a living that way at the time, because employers took full advantage of swapping “flexibility” for money – and I was much more isolated then, because there wasn’t good teleconferencing, few worked at home, and when I wasn’t working I was taking care of a young child and our household, something others declined to help with, though I was frequently invited to spend time and money I didn’t have on entertainment. What goes on now is actually much nicer, if you discount the dangers to life and health around. I now do four distinctly different kinds of online work. Some of it’s highly skilled and requires an advanced degree, some could be done by anyone with a reasonable high school education.

But: the first thing would be having people not freak at the prospect of living this way till we actually do learn to live with the virus, meaning not die in droves from it as we currently do. That’s what I was getting at in that post.

If you’ll excuse me, I have to go paint the cave’s main bathroom and bake some bread. It’s been almost 20 years (!) and while Martha made good paint back in the day, it’s time for a bit of new.

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Just saw this – I live in a 1600 sqft house with a normal refrigerator and a smallish galley kitchen. I don’t eat like a maniac, and there’s plenty of room for food. The freezer and closets were very full in late October, somewhat less full now, but they won’t start looking a bit sad till Feb or March.

I mention it because someone was indignant on behalf of people who have to go to work to supply everyone else, and can’t work from home, and using that as a rationale for not staying home in times of high transmission.

We’re not indoors with people we don’t know often. Most of our time is spent here on our farm. The kids went to church today though, so there’s that. H and I still watch a favored church online. It’s about 4 hours away from us, so not an in-person option.

I’ll be grocery shopping tomorrow morning. Last time I wore a mask there. I probably will this time too. There are usually older folks inside masked and if they care, so do I. The staff inside isn’t masked, so whether I wear one or not will depend upon who else is there at the same time.

I also have to mail a package. For that I will wear my mask because our PO has a sign asking people to wear one.

Then we’ll be heading to FIL’s on Tuesday. He prefers eating breakfast at local fast food places and he never wears a mask. His call. It’s his life at risk far more than ours. He’ll do it whether we’re with him or not. Other than that I don’t foresee us going out anywhere with other people. BIL (unvaxxed) will come for Christmas though - with FIL’s blessing. Some day I might be on here wishing he had chosen differently, but I don’t get to make the choices for him. H has asked… FIL is old enough and in his right mind to decide for himself.

Consumer here. Guilty as charged. I’m ok with it though. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

I’m ok with those who grow things, hunt, fish, and live a more simple life. It’s just not for me.

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We have 4 adults eating at our place. 6 at the moment since our oldest S and DIL are also here for a few days. It means I need to go grocery shopping once a week instead of once every 10 days or so. We like fresh veggies and fruits and they don’t last forever. We rarely eat canned foods, esp veggies.

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Well, I mean, that’s a choice. If people are going to be very concerned about grocery workers, and want them not to have to go to work, then…canned food it is. Mine’s very nice, btw.

The sensible halfway measure, also better environmentally, is to close groceries to the public, have only store workers in there well-protected, and do contactless deliveries. But apparently this too is a bridge too far.

Yes, it is too much to expect in response to a virus that does not kill 99% of those under 65 it infects. Those older than 65 or with already severe immune disease might need to take additional measures, but are frankly likely to be unable or unwilling to go to the extremes suggested.

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The point is we don’t want to spend our time doing that. Many of us prefer doing other things. That’s ok. I detest doing the things you love. It’s ok if you like them though. It takes all types for the world to go around.

If everyone did the same thing you do, the world would not be able to operate. It takes a diversity out there.

The completely vaccinated folks, with boosters especially, are not dying in droves. They have learned to live with the virus.

If people like staying inside and zooming calls to friends/family - fine. Do it. But others of us are comfortable doing other things we like and that’s fine too.

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I find the need to pat oneself on the back for living a particular lifestyle odd.

To me, this is about people making calculated, educated risks based on their particular life situations and tolerance. There is a lot of space between 100% self sustenance and CDC Covid guidelines.

Going out for what some would deem non-essentials is fine, with reasonable precautions, for those who choose to. It just is. It has to be. When the guidance changes, behaviors should change along with it.

My beef is with people flouting the guidelines or worse, spreading misinformation. I don’t care if anyone is doing anything in particular if it is within current guidelines. Do you really think there are 70 million adults in the US that are breaking the rules, or are you suggesting the guidelines aren’t strict enough?

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The grocery store workers at the store where I shop want to work and despise things that don’t let them. Many of them are typical for our red area. None wear masks now that it isn’t mandated. Who pays for their expenses if they can’t work?

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25% of covid deaths are < 65.

This thread has again turned into a debate between a few users. Please be mindful of your posts and that you allow everyone to participate. Don’t take the bait if someone tries to provoke you. Much better to just put that person on mute and move on with the conversation.

I have put the thread on slow mode until morning.

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Exactly. I’m wearing my N95 indoors to protect me. I would think that a lot of people would be concerned about O if they are older or have underlying medical conditions. What percentage of the US is obese again? Those people are at risk (and not even just obese; didn’t they determine that an over-25 BMI puts one at risk?).

There’s an abundance of data to suggest good quality masks (not even necessarily genuine N95 masks) do wonders to protect you and people around you. Masks aren’t about keeping all viruses away from you, but they can keep enough of them away from you so you’ll be much less likely to be infected. Your body can fight off a few virus particles, but not a large quantity of them, especially with Omicron, and even if you’re vaccinated. People who have weak immune response or have extended exposure need to wear better masks to protect themselves.

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Yes, CDC says those with 25+ BMI are at risk of worse outcomes from covid. Obesity, Race/Ethnicity, and COVID-19 | Overweight & Obesity | CDC

  • Percent of adults aged 20 and over with obesity: 42.5% (2017-2018) (Obesity = BMI 30+)

  • Percent of adults aged 20 and over with overweight, including obesity: 73.6% (2017-2018) (Overweight BMI 25-29, Obesity BMI 30+)

  • Percent of adolescents aged 12-19 years with obesity: 21.2% (2017-2018)

  • Percent of children aged 6-11 years with obesity: 20.3% (2017-2018)

  • Percent of children aged 2-5 years with obesity: 13.4% (2017-2018)

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