And the Government who threw a couple of billion dollars at the R&D up-front.
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At first blush, I also thought this Florida-not-recommending-vaccine-for-healthy-kids was lunacy also. But Iād like to hear more about how they are defining āhealthyā and also know more about the 42 kids who died. Did they all have obvious/known health situations and/or were overweight which would also count as unhealthy (so still children who Florida would recommend get vaccinated)? How many of the 42 were healthy weight with no other known health conditions? Iām not asking this to argueā¦.my family including kids got vaxxed and boosted as soon as we possibly could. But I do think it would be helpful to really understand the risks for the kids who are considered healthy vs. those considered unhealthy (so those recommended to get the shot vs. not recommended). I feel like this information should be included in well-researched articles.
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It looks like they are recommending against vaccination, which is different from not recommending vaccination. I.e. the difference between anti-vaccination and not making any recommendation at all.
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My instinct on the cost benefit calculus of going unmasked is that some people are underestimating the consequences of long Covid. Iāve talked to vaxxed folks who have gotten Covid and feel tired and/or feel fuzzy for months. Hereās a BBC article about the effects of Covid on the brain:
Iād guess are most of the people on this thread are knowledge workers of some kind. I think weeks or months of being not quite functional as a knowledge worker would be problematic. In my case, Iām a knowledge creator and seller ā Iām come up with new ways to think about things and help organizations apply those ways of thinking to perform better. I am willing to risk a few days of being under the weather (cold or typical flu) but I donāt want weeks or months of fatigue and/or brain fog that make it difficult for me to function. The costs would be both financial and non-financial.
https://abc11.com/long-covid-omicron-how-lasts-symptoms-can-you-get-from/11548469/
I think the argument for avoiding a disease with some meaningful probability of mental dysfunction in my mind applies even more strongly for the decision to get vaccinated even if one is not immunocompromised or elderly (this is for those who appear vax-skeptical except for older folks and the immunocompromised).
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I just took a look at the 1st article you posted from ScienceDaily and this data especially looks outdated to me, especially based on where we are at in the pandemic today. Look at this quote from the article:
āThe researchers conducted a systematic review of 57 reports that included data from 250,351 unvaccinated adults and children who were diagnosed with COVID-19 from December 2019 through March 2021. Among those studied, 79% were hospitalized, and most patients (79%) lived in high-income countries. Patientsā median age was 54, and the majority of individuals (56%) were male.ā
This data is only for unvaccinated people before the vaccines were widely available which is not where we are in the pandemic where over 75% of adults are fully vaccinated.
I am not saying that we should not be weary of Covid or Long Covid, but I just prefer much more relevant data when looking at research data. And my own personal experience is not seeing anywhere close to the percentages of Long Covid in your articles.
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I just did a quick Google search. Not sure why older articles popped up first. But, I have recently talked to folks who had Covid in 2021- 2022 who are suffering from fatigue and brain fog. Just anecdotal but very worrisome.
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Itās almost as if managing a fast spreading and mutating virus for a population of 330 million people represents a dynamic challenge requiring dynamic decision making.
Sadly, I (used to) know people who were on the sidelines actively rooting for negative outcomes and events just so they could wag their fingers at the CDC and state governors and thereby, in their minds, vindicate the tinfoil hat crowd.
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Lest anyone read a biased source about the ālatestā RNA/DNA study, 'tis good to read this too:
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Unfortunately, long COVID seems to be underresearched generally, and research results may be less consistent due to varying definitions of ālong COVIDā. Long COVID is also often ignored when considering risks on an individual and population basis when making individual or public health policy decisions based on COVID risks.
What appears to be the case based on what research has been done:
- Infections in unvaccinated people have relatively high rates of long COVID, although the rates do vary widely. About a third is probably a likely percentage based on the research results. Note that the severity of long COVID varies considerably.
- A significant portion of previously unvaccinated people with long COVID get some relief after vaccination.
- One study found that previously unvaccinated people who got infected had lower risk of long COVID if they got vaccinated sooner after infection than later.
- Breakthrough infections in vaccinated people appear to have significantly lower (but non-zero) rates of long COVID, in addition to vaccinated people being less likely to get infected in the first place. But the number of studies on such is very limited.
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This isnāt true for everyone. I hate them (for medical reasons) and never wear one unless Iām mandated to. Itās great that for you itās no big deal. For some people it is a big deal. Combine that with the minor effectiveness of communal masking and for me thereās no point. People who are worried about getting covid can wear a kn95 or n95 mask and thus protect themselves.
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Agree. I donāt mind wearing one in stores or events like concerts, though I attended a show last weekend and it was so hot!! I bought a beverage and nursed it so I could take it off to cool my face. But Iāve been wearing an N95 at work all day since June 2020 and recently started having issues with breathing and coughing. I finally broke down and got the best cloth mask I could find. The problems went away but itās still hot and annoying. And I donāt feel confident that cloth masks really help.
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Really? I disagree, thereās quite a bit of research. Including the study from France that shows that the primary indicator of having long Covid is believing youāve had Covid but not having ever tested positive for Covid. I have seen this in my friends. Middle aged women heading into menopause who having been complaining of fatigue/brain fog and other menopause symptoms for months get Covid and all of a sudden all those symptoms are a result of long Covid.
Yes long Covid is real but because itās not something you can test for it is likely over reported. Additionally MANY viruses cause long term health issues and no one seems to realize that. This virus isnt wildly different In that respect.
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I understand if you are not comfortable wearing masks and that is certainly your choice. My issue with your response is this piece:
āCombine that with the minor effectiveness of communal masking and for me thereās no point.ā
Perhaps you and I define āminor effectivenessā differently.
For me, this hits home the point.
With respect to long covid - I agree - how can you definitively identify the source of a generalized malaise. Perhaps fear is attributing symptoms to Covid that belong elsewhere. Ultimately, the issue will be if there are significant global health changes. As I have said before, my fear is that we will see significant societal health challenges 10+ years out - more strokes and heart attacks from a higher incidence of blood clots or more organ failure, etc. because, as you say, many viruses cause subsequent health issues. The difference here is that with this virus it appears that in 2 years approximately 1/2 of the worldās population has been infected - not sure we have experience with that!
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For me itās not ābeing uncomfortable.ā Itās frankly infuriating for mask proponents to diminish the problems that some people have with wearing masks. Especially since a mask proponent does not need other people to mask up to keep themselves safe. The data is quite clear that one person wearing an n95 is far safer for that person than two people wearing surgical masks (this was reported on in the Atlantic) so why do people care so very much what others do?
I was not clear - ācommunal maskingā is not effective - community masking does not change the course of Covid. From the NYT yesterday but this info has been quite clear for a long time:
āThe second lesson is that interventions other than vaccination ā like masking and distancing ā are less powerful than we might wish.
The lack of a clear pattern is itself striking. Remember, not only have Democratic voters been avoiding restaurants and wearing masks; they are also much more likely to be vaccinated and boosted (and vaccines substantially reduce the chances of infection). Combined, these factors seem as if they should have caused large differences in case rates.
They have not. And that they havenāt offers some clarity about the relative effectiveness of different Covid interventions.
These stark differences have created a kind of natural experiment: Did Omicron spread less in the parts of the U.S. where social distancing and masking were more common?
The answer is surprisingly unclear.ā
I would also strongly dispute the accuracy of the CA govt info graphic. It is a perfect example of one kind of scientist doing an experiment and deciding āx is trueā while ignoring other factors because those factors arenāt in their wheelhouse. The 5micron = a virus spread by air debate between aerosol scientists and the WHO last year is a perfect example of this. Scientists often donāt know what they donāt know. Science isnt ātrueā the way non scientists think it is because there are just too many factors that specialists in one field donāt know about.
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I think we will also see significant health effects from lockdowns and isolation. As well as issues for kids who grew up in a masked society. Itās simply not a zero risk/no downside issue the way mask proponents pretend it is.
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Additionally just from personal experience - I am fully vaccinated + booster and still got omicron (sequenced when I had a pcr test) while wearing a kn95 (properly). I was with 5 other people, all vaccinated and boosted and wearing masks. 4 of them also got Covid. So 5 out of 6 vaccinated boosted masked adults for Covid. This was at work so everyone was tested.
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This is common. I know tons of people who are boosted and got omicron. As has been stated repeatedly, you are almost certainly going to be much less ill and will not spread as much virus if youāve been vaccinated.
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