Value of a ND education

North – My advice would be don’t take the advice of people who do not know you well (and here we barely know the OP at all) and who you do not know well.

I understand that that is contrary to what we see here a lot. Just has always seemed very odd to me.

collegegirl – Good luck with your decision. With choices between ND and UNC, you really can’t go wrong. Is ND worth $80k more than UNC? Despite what others may tell you here, there is no objective right or wrong answer. Its a decision that only you and your parents can make. I would talk to the people who know you best (rather than people you have never met on an anonymous message board) and who you trust. And in the end, it will be something of a leap of faith (pardon the pun) no matter which decision you make. Though again, you have two great options here.

@collegegirl6789: PHD programs are funded unless the student shouldn’t be on that path. Funded means your tuition is waived and you get a stipend in exchange for being a TA or being a research assistant. So, you don’t pay for your graduate studies. If you have to pay for your program, it means your degree has no value because your University didn’t see you as worthy of training as a teacher and not good enough academically to fund.
Even if you switch from Biology to another science, this still applies.

Our DD has been accepted REA engineering @ ND (full pay). She has great back up options at both GT or Purdue (flagship). So we are looking at huge cost differences between schools. ND is her 1st choice, by a mile. We also currently have 2 (Mendoza & biology- premed) @ ND on full tuition merit scholarship. Do we make a significant sacrifice of our retirement so that she can have the undergraduate experience her sisters have or the financially responsible one for our future? I have always been a financially responsible person and I am totally torn on what to do.

If, @saillakeerie, you are talking about changing your major at ND, it is relatively easy to do, and usually doesn’t involve an extra year of study. At most state schools, you are admitted to a college, and changing colleges can be challenging, so it might be better to be at a school like ND where that won’t “cost” you extra money or time.

@K3MomIN If nothing else, you have 2 very specific data points upon which to base your decision for your 3rd daughter. You can judge the experiences that your two eldest have had thus far, and decide whether the cost differential between ND and the backup options is justifiable. I would think that probably puts you in a pretty good position to make the call as to whether ND is “worth it” for your daughter and your family’s financial situation.

As a financially responsible person myself, I can certainly understand how torn you feel. As good as Notre Dame may be – and as intrinsic and intangible as its value/benefit may be – it’s just a tough compare at $72K vs. strong in-state flagships at about half the cost such as Virginia, Michigan, Texas, UC Berkeley/UCLA, etc.

K3 – how in the world did you get two kids into ND with full tuition schollies? Those are great deals and very hard to come by.

If you can realistically send #3 to ND full pay, great. But I wouldn’t feel bad at all telling #3 that ND full pay is just a bridge too far financially.

If you had full paid for ND for #1 and #2 then I think you’d be stuck. But you only had to pay $15k a year for ND per kid. That’s simply an unbelievable cost/value proposition that no one would turn down. Would you have been able to send #1 or #2 to ND if they had been full pays?

Sending #3 to ND at $70k a year is just a totally different ballgame. It isn’t the same decision at all as when you sent #1 and #2 to ND for just room/board. And since #3 is an engineer, paying a huge ND premium is even harder to justify.

Purdue engineering is like top 10 in the country. In-state at $25k a year is one of the best cost/value propositions for undergrad engineering in the country. And if Purdue isn’t compelling enough, Georgia Tech engineering is like top 5, and probably runs $45k a year for out-of-state. Unless you can go in-state at a place like Berkeley, Mich or Purdue, GT engineering OOS is also about as good a cost/value ratio as there is.

College Girl - This is such a personal question for the student and the family, because every situation is different. Speaking for our personal experience, our D’s final choice was down to full pay at either ND or another top 20 school. But she also had scholarships to other schools and we offered to give her the money we would save to help pay for grad school. She chose to attend ND and knows she will have to pay for any further education she pursues. To her, it was worth the extra money to go to ND after listening to her dad (an alum) talk about the ND magic for 18 years. But that’s why it’s a personal question, there truly is no right or wrong answer. It’s not crazy if you want to do it, and it’s not crazy if you don’t want to do it. I know there are certainly more tangible things to consider when making that final choice. But I will tell you, for our family, my husband strongly advised our D that the ND experience was priceless - the people you meet there, the philosophy of the university, the way it shapes you. And the alumni network is unparalleled. Having been an ND wife for many years, and observing a lot over the years, I will tell you ND bonds are strong, almost cult-like, and I don’t mean that as an insult. It is something you have to experience to believe. The college I attended did not have that, so it was very foreign to me to observe in my husband’s friends and associates I have met over the years. Just a little anecdote…I remember last semester I called the university with a question. I commented to my husband how nice the person was and the extent to which they went to help me. He turned to me, without pause, and said - well to them you’re family now. That really struck me. He was so matter of fact, as if it was nothing new to him and so expected. I don’t know if most universities breed that mentality, but ND does, and it’s very special.

I can validate that the alumni connections at Notre Dame are strong as my son had a job offer by the end of October (Mendoza) in his senior year. The firm who hired him had previously hire ND grads and recruited on campus at ND as they had great experiences with their ND grads.

26 "This is such a personal question for the student and the family, because every situation is different. Speaking for our personal experience, our D's final choice was down to full pay at either ND or another top 20 school. But I will tell you, for our family, my husband strongly advised our D that the ND experience was priceless."

Waiting – is it really true to say it is priceless to you? I kind of doubt it.

The studies show that most college decisions are mostly driven by the ratio of price to value/prestige. For your family, you picked ND full pay (high price, high prestige) over full pay at another top 20 (also high price, high prestige). That is an easy call for you – your family is picking ND for all the great reasons you describe when the prestige is equal. You also elected to pick ND over a lower tier school at a lower price. You clearly saw value in the ND prestige/experience and your financial circumstances allowed you to make that choice.

But what would have been the outcome if the choice was between ND full pay and the other top 20 at, say, half pay? In that hypo, the other top 20 clearly has the better ratio. Are you still paying up just to get the ND magic (since the prestige is the same)? Suppose the other top 20 was a full tuition scholarship? Or a full ride?

I ask only because this question (should I take a deal at school X or pay more for school Y) is perhaps the single most frequently discussed topic on these boards (not just for ND). I really struggled with that decision for my kids and I really appreciated hearing from others about all the different decisions people made and why.

In our case, we (like you) would have easily picked full pay ND over full pay at another top 20. Also would have picked full pay ND vs. a deal at a significantly lower ranked school. But with the benefit of hindsight, I now see that our family ended up putting a very specific price on the ND magic.

To us, the magic turned out to be worth about $20k a year when the prestige was equal. Our alternative (another top 20 with full tuition) was $50k a year less. Kid is happily attending the other school. ND would have been great for the kid too, but for us the ND experience was not priceless.

@northwesty I admitted that it was a personal question for every family and that I could only offer our experience and I feel that’s what I did. For my husband - for whom I spoke and who took loans to attend - the experience was indeed priceless and you are free to doubt that as you wish.

The reason I shared our experience was because I felt our situation was somewhat similar to OPs. While I did say the “final” choice came down to ND and another top 20 at full pay – I also said that my daughter also considered non top-20 schools (like UNC is non top-20) at which she got scholarships.

Plus OP said this - “We too can afford ND. I have no doubt that ND is a better fit for me and that I would get a lot out of it. I also think it will set me up better for my future. It’s just a question of whether that difference is worth 80k.” So yes my family could afford to make that decision, but based on OPs comment, apparently so can her family. Thus, similar choice of schools, similar savings from picking school w/ aid and similar financial situation in that both options are available as a choice. (And I still say if OP makes a different choice than we did, hers is still a valid choice. Only she knows in the end the best thing for her).

I have seen your other posts on CC and am aware of which top 20 school your son chose and that he got a full ride. Congrats to him, well done. If we were in THAT position, I probably would have encouraged my daughter to make the same choice. But that is very different from the situation here. Because then, as you said, the delta is $280K. Not $80K – which is the case for OP and was the case for us.

@collegegirl6789 – I just noticed that one of the featured threads for this page (up top) is a thread called Why Notre Dame? It’s from 2004, but if you read the excellent comment from someone called docmom, it says a lot about ND

http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/university-notre-dame/7427-why-notre-dame-p1.html

Northwesty,
The scholarship my girls received is not from ND but a private foundation. My older girls would not be attending ND without the scholarship. Of the two at ND, I have one on each side of the fence regarding if ND is “worth” the huge price. Both have had great experiences with professors, wonderful opportunities with internships, research and service projects and are happy there. I never thought I would struggle with the decision to spend $90k vs $290k for one kid to go to college.

@K3momIN~ it’s interesting you say between your two girls it’s split if it is worth it. Myself, 3 sibs, my husband, 2 brother in laws and 1 sister in law (plus 3 more in laws to my in laws) went to ND in our generation. I love ND and consider us a ND family, but not everyone in my family would consider it worth the price. Unfortunately, we are not in the position to choose ND as my son did not get accepted REA (would have been a great fit for him) and honestly, it has been hard on the ND die hards of my family. Goes to show every child is different and not every place is the best fit for every child, even ND.

@My5Kiddos, I’m sorry about your son’s results. I hate this process, honestly, not with regard to ND specifically, just the whole thing. If he was a candidate for ND, then you know that he has what it takes to bloom wherever he is planted and do great, but that would be hard. All the best to him, and to you.

Thank you Suzy100. I agree, such a tough process. Best of luck to your girls…ND is a fun experience to share with siblings. Go Irish!

@ndtxmom82 In terms of changing majors (or desired career path), my point was that grad school/necessity of it may well change as a result and with it the opportunity of it to be paid for by someone else. It certainly isn’t uncommon for kids to change their desired paths (sometimes multiple times) while in college. If that happens and you find yourself after 4 years in a graduate school for which you must cover tuition on your own, having money available (the $80k in this case) may be very significant. Do we know for sure that will happen? No way. But we don’t know it won’t either. Which is why I do not agree with the absolute/definitive advice being given here as to value by certain posters.

In terms of changing majors at a state school requiring an additional year, I agree its definitely possible and does happen. But I think the risk of that is over-stated (at least for the kids at state schools who either did get into ND or had resumes to be competitive to get in). And I would be very surprised if there wasn’t at least one kid at ND who changed majors and as a result spent a 5th year there. The vast majority of the high stat kids (kids choosing between ND and any number of other schools presumably are high stat kids) I know who went to state schools graduated (or will graduate) in 4 years (including several who changed majors). That x% of kids at a given school take more than 4 years to graduate does not mean that all kids who enter as freshman have an x% chance of taking more than 4 years to graduate.

Some kids graduate from state schools in 3 years or in 4 with a BS/MS (or at least having taking one or multiple graduate level classes before graduation). I know several kids who have done that. That saves money and is on the flip side of “change majors and you will take 5+ years to graduate” from a state school.

@northwesty You say that the ND magic was worth about $20k/year for you. Others here clearly think its worth more than that. Is it that out of the question that for some students/families it could be worth something less than $20k/year? And if that lower valid of magic is valid at least for given students/families, how do we know where the OP falls on the value spectrum?

I agree that the “which deal to take” is a very common subject here (and not just for ND). Though to me, those threads are some of the least valuable threads on this board. There just isn’t enough known about the parties on either side of the advice exchange to make it valuable. Often times the major and career goals of the kid aren’t even stated. And if they are its often just “wants to major in engineering or chemistry” with nothing said about career goals or plans. Or what are the things that you like best about X school, how important are they to you, etc. In terms of finances, “my parents can afford it.” How many variations are there to that statement? We could exchange balance sheets (not that that ever happens on this board) and if you said you were able to afford X school and my finances are similar to yours, it still may not work out for me. You may have much more job/income security than I do. You may have parents with fully funded retirements while I have parents I will need to support in their retirement. You house may be appreciating rapidly while mine isn’t increasing in value at all.

I guess there is some value in getting info from other similarly situated students/families. But how do you know they are similarly situated? How similar is their kid to yours? Your family finance situation to theirs? Were they telling the truth? Exaggerating? Overstating the good and suppressing the bad? Providing confirmation bias? How do you know? Seems to me you could be just as likely to make a valid choice by pulling college names out of a hat or tossing coins.

In terms of ND is top 20 and UNC isn’t, USNews has ND at 18 and UNC at 30. Presumably a delta of 12 is clearly significant (though ND is closer to UNC than it is to being top 5 much less #1). How about #25? Is that close enough to 18 (and being top 20)? If not, how about #21?

This is such a long thread that I stopped reading halfway through. To the OP: I could post a 5 paragraph long explanation about how Notre Dame is the most wonderful place in the world, but instead I’ll just answer your question in one word: Yes. Notre Dame is worth the extra 80k.

First, congratulations on your acceptance. Second, congratulations on your character. You’re concern for your parents’ finances and respect for their assistance is laudable. My son is a sophomore at ND, we pay full tuition, and we can do so without stretching. For me, it is absolutely “worth it,” because I see my son excelling and flourishing, and the school is the perfect fit for him.

As a parent, I am happy and grateful to be able to provide him a solid education and firm foundation for the future without his going into debt. He is fortunate and grateful. I have communicated this to all my children, that as long as they are doing their part, I am more than happy to give them a great start. It’s then up to them to take the ball and run with it.

My second son is a senior in HS and has been accepted to his third choice (currently) with a very significant merit scholarship. If he is accepted to either of his top two, we will likely be paying full tuition or close. No financial aid coming our way other than merit. Wherever he choses, it will be “worth it” if he does his part and takes advantage of the wonderful opportunity he has. That is his obligation, and I have confidence he will run with it.

Hopefully, that gives you a parental perspective that is helpful. Having said that, I don’t know the intricacies of your family’s financial situation, i.e., can your parents easily afford it, or will it be a stretch? Although, as others pointed out, the $80k difference you are contemplating is not that significant in context. Only you can answer that with an honest talk with your parents. Let them know your concerns, and let them communicate their thoughts and intentions to you. In the end, they are responsible adults, and if they are OK with paying, be grateful, choose your heart’s desire, and then live your college life in a way that respects them and makes them feel good about their decision!

Good luck!

I think I can have a say on this.
Paying both full price, I actually transferred from Chapel Hill to Notre Dame b/c it is very hard to get into class at large public universities. Class like intro to statistics have 50+ students waiting on the waitlist to get a seat, and it’s very hard to get them if you don’t try hard enough (i.e: check registar at 3:00 AM in the morning). Notre Dame, on the other hand, I had no difficulties to get in the class and all the professors are great at teaching.
Education resource is definitely very different. Notre Dame just spent 0.5 billion dollars to build a new Duncan student center, with brand new rock climbing wall and fitness studios. In my freshman at UNC, I always hated the classrooms because all the halls are sketchy and old.
Last and certainly the least, the student body is very different. There are a lot of peer pressure at ND, but in a good way. Students are way more hardworking, open-minded, and engaged. UNC has students from a diverse background and Greek life is tremendous there. ND does not have Greek life (which I like) but a dorm system that encourage you engage with your community.
That pretty much explains my experience at both schools. I never regret to transfer to ND even though UNC is much cheaper (my parents are paying both full price and not wealthy which I feel bad but becomes a motivation for me to work harder).
And lastly, ND is great for pre-med and even bio phds. You can easily get a lab or research founding given how rich the school is. UNC, on the other hand, does not have that many lab opportunities for undergraduate students.
Hope this helps.