Vanderbilt and Duke

@twicearound
Vanderbilt ENROLLS at those SAT ranges (meaning it admits even higher. It pretty much chooses high scorers), Duke ADMITS at those ranges and enrolls lower. Regardless, they are useless statistics because even though Duke and comparable stats. schools are lower stats wise than Columbia, Vanderbilt, and WUSTL, the signature programs and level of engagement with them must be really high at Duke (or Stanford, or because their undergraduates have a higher than normal rate of winning post-graduate awards. Duke had 3-4 Rhodes this past cycle for example, and I don’t know if Vandy had one, but most top 20-25s had at least 1 regardless of their incoming stats. It’s lesser so about what they come in with (as the stats at all these places are clearly at the upper-echelon whether the average is a 1350 or 1500), but more so what the school does with their talent.

@nerdyChica: Perhaps that is because Duke is one of the many schools very effective at developing its talent and making sure its talent takes advantage of whatever opps make them competitive for such awards. It could indicate that Duke students are more aggressive with that sort of thing or that the apparatuses that support such efforts are just stronger there. Vanderbilt has the stats but just needs to work on maximizing the potential of the students if it wants to look better at least (by looking better, I mean winning these post-grad awards at similar or better rates in comparison to peers especially those in its SAT bracket which are only a few and do not include Duke, but more like Columbia, Caltech, MIT WUSTL, Yale, Princeton, and Harvard…all which Duke fairs decently against).

Also, I don’t know if I find Duke academically similar in many areas (first of all, the strengths of each at the UG level just seem different to me) as a lot of effort has gone into making certain programs there truly shine (like even becoming comparable to top Ivies) and one just so happens to be the one that the OP may be interested in. I know we like to say that schools with similar or better stats have identical or similar academics, but sometimes it just isn’t true. One school could have great academics and thus have recently been working on increasing quality of life to compete in the rankings whereas the other could already have had great academics, but still continue to invest far more in academics and just do qol stuff as they go along. For example, a poster which I find somewhat believable (after investigating the coursework in their field) posted about the differences they noticed in academics at Columbia (seeming much more rigorous for the same classes) vs. WUSTL which has basically the same stats as Columbia if not a little better. Different schools have different mechanisms and different levels at which they challenge their students. I learned not to make any assumptions until I saw samples of course work. The results are sometimes surprising.

I know we love to pat our schools on the back for progress but we must be honest and realistic and not resort to throwing out stats that have little meaning without context. Both Vanderbilt and Duke have work to do, but Vandy has a bit more as of current.

@bernie12 Duke’s recent Nobel wins are probably even more noteworthy than the Rhodes scholars.

@bernie12 Thanks for the edits, but you missed my point. And let’s be honest and realistic and stop perpetuating that any of us holds the truth about what makes one school better than another, especially when comparing tops schools. It’s not just about what the school does with the student’s talents but what the student does with their talents and opportunities.

I stand by my point: When choosing among great schools, choose based on what is important to you as an individual. We don’t live in a magazine, on CC, and we are not all going to be RSs or Nobel winners. Life is not determined by undergrad. It is but one factor.

And I believe some stats re awards were also thrown out there which are much more interesting in their proper context too:

http://www.rhodesscholar.org/assets/uploads/RS_Number%20of%20Winners%20by%20Institution_1_15_16.pdf

I so appreciate the discourse and comments. I asked the question, because the schools are so comparable. IF he is able to get in either, I will be delighted. I think Nashville may be the better environment for his non academic interests. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. It is a long road, and I hope it will end up at one of these…I thank you all for the time you put in…

@NerdyChica , indeed! They’ve advanced a lot on many fronts. I’m just mentioning issues that are more representative of the success of their undergraduate program as OP’s son will be an undergraduate. A Nobel Prize indicates the strength of the research enterprise at Duke (unless you mean a former student won it! Which would be epic for them).

@twicearound : But the issues I cite are indicative of the strength of their undergraduate offerings. I believe one should choose based on fit, but to me, places like Stanford, Duke, Notre Dame, Georgetown, and Vanderbilt are known for particular social vibes typically associated with more “fun” and laid-backness (not a word I know, and Stanford admittedly has the influence of the nerd and start-up scene now-a-days and students are concerned about how seeming little attention humanities and other fields get at the UG level). This would almost leave one to chose based on programmatic strengths at the UG level because other than some campuses being more stuck up than others (which can and indeed should influence the decision), they are known for similar atmospheres and priding themselves on it. The fact is, despite that, they are not necessarily academically similar. Due to the differences in strength and curricula, the experiences would be different (like a person wanting business at ND would go to the business school which is much more formal business training than either econ. at Duke or Peabody at Vandy. Now whether it is better…that’s up to the student to decide).

@bernie12 yeah definitely which is why I said Vanderbilt has the potential. The best schools for business are in the northeast but if you’re concerned about your Vanderbilt degree having value in the future (in regards to business) vs the ivies it’s not a stretch to say that it will happen

@Suffer : For undergrad? Most Ivies don’t have UG business, except Penn (Wharton). The tops include mostly non-Ivies (WUSTL, ND for sure, Emory, and so on) and top public schools (Virginia, Berkeley, Austin, Illinois-UC I think). Vanderbilt can maybe get more out of enhancing its undergraduate economics program. It’s how Duke now competes with top Ivies and Chicago, all which have extremely rigorous UG economics programs (many with honors courses and everything). Even the schools with top business programs could benefit from making the econ. program stronger as a more rigorous economics major usually encompasses much stronger quantitative training than econ. programs and certainly business programs at other schools (including other elite ones).

Also, this is a bit more tricky than on the surface. Vanderbilt has the potential if it makes certain moves, which may or may not be well-received:

Very strong quantitative training makes the students more marketable to those top companies and also expands the range of employment opps. for them. Vanderbilt has a pretty solid UG math program with lots of majors (may be second most populated major there?) so maybe could use that and make joint programs with econ. or something, because unless you’re Wharton, the business school’s (or any entity functioning as a de facto business degree) ability to place outside of some specific types of jobs seems kind of limited at least if you claim you want to compete with very top Ivies and Chicago. Also, Vanderbilt like most of its peers already has value versus the Ivies, just not necessarily the very top ones.

While a lot of the top Ivie’s success in putting UG’s in business positions is based on the past, it isn’t for no reason. Their programs in majors that typically lead to business or Tech careers (such as math and econ. and even other quantitative STEM. Even some social sciences are well-known for their honors tracks and the products they produce from it) are just extremely rigorous and robust even in comparison to other elites and “lower Ivies”(I hate using this annoying term!).

Basically, unless the programs at one’s school are super innovative and effective, looking more like (as in having similar structure and tiering) the programs at those top Ivies seems not to hurt schools that truly want to compete with them. The success of Duke (Hopkins, Penn, whoever) isn’t only student body quality. Their programs have always looked like or have evolved to look more similar to to those super elite schools and have produced similar results. One of the main secrets is the tiering of courses in certain departments which seems pretty good at Vanderbilt in the math department for example. Basically, any track of courses that allow the super talented students matriculating to challenge themselves at abnormally high levels in freshmen and sophomore year is going to have an effect over time and the pathway will become decently well-known with employers (like math 55 or even the 20 series at Harvard, Honors econ. sequence, the honors physics sequence, etc.

Most other super top schools have followed this scheme over numerous departments…(offering special tracks or fellowships at the department level). The only issue is that places like HYPSMCh often get students whose experience in a field goes beyond just AP/IB credit so they can get a reasonable amount of students taking such courses successfully (Basically, it is why Harvard can have like 5-6 different tracks for freshman/sophomore physics and math and have the higher half decently populated). They also have more students who plan to pursue PhD’s or work in the fields after graduation. If most students were say pre-law or pre-med, no way those courses would really have any people in them.

One would have to seriously rethink academics in some key departments to compete against such places in certain areas. It isn’t enough to assume that they are as good as those places. It has to be demonstrated and made known to employers and graduate recruiters. And also, such changes often must come with cultural changes (by faculty and students) which may not be welcomed. Everyone, for example, notices how Duke has changed as some of their programs became serious contenders and many people who like schools like Vandy don’t like the difference they see with a place like Duke (still fun, but overall more stuffy and academic now as it is getting students who otherwise would have gone to top Ivies or schools that have always been known for academic intensity).

Hello. I have not been on CC as much as in years past. This is my 10 year mark for looking into at CC way back when…for my two sons who are now graduates of Duke 09 and Vandy 13. Duke son majored in Econ and in History and played in the Duke Symphony Orchestra for pleasure-- which added a lot into his life as he loves to play music but he is not talented enough to have earned a seat in the Vanderbilt Symphony. Duke has a superglam Cultural Arts budget so he saw many world class performers at Duke as well…these opportunities are shared with Durham locals. Both sons went abroad.

Vandy also has a superglam budget for events…these are the perks of a larger college with a big endowment. Nashville doubles these blessings as the host city to tons of events.

Both schools have strong professional graduate schools on campus which I like a lot. Adds a sense of reality to undergrad and more opportunities for speakers and events.

That said, I will make a few points that the original poster probably doesn’t need spelled out but someone else reading might.

ED is only for people who can afford to pay their full EFC. If you can, and you are facing reality square on…ED is golden. (We weren’t very reality based with first son and paid full price for Duke. He ended up going into business and working on his MBA and UVA would have been just great for half the cost. The recession hit his senior year. and Vandy son was told that it was flagship school or merit scholarship). Do not pay full price if you can’t afford to help your son or daughter in some manner to defray a portion of graduate school and other expenses. If I had a nickel for the adults who tell me “graduate school is On Them.” out of touch. Duke son goes to night school because he can’t afford the full time two year MBA path. He has a good job he can’t afford to quit. Think about all this when you make your plans. Think about your long game. if you are chosen for such things as stipended PHD programs–you gotta be good to land them. both Duke and Vandy have strong ROTC programs btw. (I am a military brat). Yes you can choose a graduate degree that is not going to cost the price of a nice home and is taught very well at a state funded college. But if you have your eyes on Medical School, Law school or a top MBA day program, do not be naive. Be realistic. Your family income will be required on FAFSAs in some professional schools till your son or daughter is 28 years of age. They are not emancipated in many schools.

Be grateful for Obama care. You will be surprised how many people have their college grad children on their own family plan now because of the ACA till they turn 26. It takes longer to launch financially these days for often legit reasons. Landing a job with full benefits at age 23 can be difficult. And many grad schools want work experience before you show up.

I personally think everyone should tell their kids to buck up re Greek life. If you dislike it --as Vandy son does, --too bad --because colleges free of Greek life are few and far between and often private. Behavior that you think is snotty or country clubbish as a freshman or sophomore may turn you off —but all these 20 year olds grow up, lighten up, mature and often into pretty tremendous people. Our Duke son loved his Greek life experience and he benefitted from the moral support and camaraderie for many years hence. I am not a fan of the system. But I like my son’s friends.

Vandy son picked Vandy because of Vanderbilt’s superior location, and superior access to cultural opportunities, internships and agencies in Nashville. 50 percent of Vandy females go Greek. Going off campus is a tonic if this is not for you. By junior year, all of this has shaken out and everyone is more about internships, going abroad, volunteer work and getting their majors accomplished. Nevertheless, Nashville is a great college town and Nashville loves Vandy.

In my opinion, Durham is less user friendly for 19 and 20 year olds so it has a little less splendor to offer as a
distraction when Greek life seems to be on the minds of a lot of your class. That said, Duke has many Non Greek living houses now that are interesting. Since my son left, women also got turf in the dorms for their sororities, thus ending a century of only Greek men claiming turf in dorms and thus men controlling on-campus parties. Go Girls. Long time coming.

Went to see The Big Short last week. Christian Bale plays a Vandy grad btw. Brought up some sour memories of when all the Duke gals and guys were so keen to land jobs in IB on Wall Street. Pre recession mind you. Even MIT was putting a third of its classes on Wall Street. It was a national delusional system. Not unique to Duke. There is no doubt that Duke had a funnel into Wall Street entry level jobs and still does. Johnny Mack. Just had to type that name too. Those were the days my friend. Duke still has a very strong presence in financial institutions. Do not doubt it. Networking matters but so does talent.

There is no difference in who is at Duke or Vandy anymore re “numbers”. I will say this. Vandy son had a 36 on his ACT math. Here is a secret I think we should all share with our kids. Doesn’t mean beans once you hit the next level if you want to life in quantitative work. A 36 does not translate to an A in Econ. It just means you nailed high school math. So. Think realistically about your kid. Duke son was thrilled if he got a B minus in Calculus at Duke. Thrilled to make a C on an exam. Because it was his very very best effort even with a national math champ from some small town in Maryland tutoring him (what a terrific guy that Maryland boy was).

Be cautious re focusing on Wall Street. This was the daydream of everyone in 2006 at Duke. Job offers go to the few. Therefore, it is wise to embrace the business “Clusters” offered at places like Vandy and Duke that will not give a business degree. Duke son would not do it when he was there. He had other growing up to do. Must take music lessons on his instrument. Must learn a language. Must study History. All good. Must go abroad. Now he is paying the price learning accounting at night after working full time all day. Duke son is a huge Blue Devil fan. By that I mean that when your classmates are world class athletes and scholars, he would go cheer them on if it was fencing, volleyball, soccer, football, lacrosse. Following them gave him pleasure. If you don’t love sports, it is sort of a waste of one of Duke’s signature qualities. And you gotta root for your classmates and give them some respect. That said, Vanderbilt sports has a following in Nashville and among alum. And Vandy has a fabulous cultural life.

I have crushes on some LACs that our sons didn’t end up attending…schools like Bowdoin Davidson and Haverford. You will never get the intimacies with the teaching staff those schools offer at a Vandy or Duke or a state flagship. You will need to make an effort to know your faculty mentors. But you will get an amazing and varied peer group. My sons eyes seemed to be on their very proactive peers at Duke and Vandy who were in many ways their true teachers. Bigger schools can be great if your son or daughter is mature enough to extract the best from these institutions and can initiate, create their own learning path, and take charge of their days as if they are in fact working.

good luck shaking it all out

@Faline2 what an informative post. I have a son at UVa and a son admitted ED Duke 2020. I’m a Vanderbilt fan and still have a third child (it’s a girl!) who will be applying in four years. My UVa son applied to Vandy RD and was waitlisted. My Duke son didn’t apply to Vandy because he got in ED1. Both my sons are in engineering. We’re still interested in Vanderbilt and the information you provide contrasting with Duke is useful to me and many others no doubt. Also what great insights regarding graduate school. Thank you.

Faline2, that was an amazing and informative post. Thanks so much for taking the time…

****Cornell has an outstanding undergraduate business school (Dyson) and is one of the hardest programs to be admitted to out of the 7 colleges at Cornell. They have a minor tailored just to engineers, which is just an amazing opportunity.

@Swimmer726 : I know students in these threads only like to discuss the top 30 or so schools, but isn’t Northeastern known for offering similar type of programming through both engineering and business?

Also, don’t rub in the difficulty of the admission, just saying. Either the academic program is good or it isn’t and we know it is good regardless of its admissions stats (because Cornell students are already really good). And that would be the second Ivy with one which for whatever reason I didn’t think of (Tuck doesn’t have a UG program does it?)

@Faline2 Thank you for the incredible post on Vandy v Duke, with so much other good advice thrown in (eg being wary of saying “grad school’s on them”, pointing out that frat bros can mature into smart, interesting people). S no. 2 is a junior in SF Bay Area and we are about go visit WUSTL, Vandy and Northwestern, with a long weekend next month to see Duke. As w/previous poster, goal is to choose a find a school he can feel good about applying to ED. In CA Vanderbilt is much less well known than Duke, but I love everything I’ve read so far. Would be thrilled for son to end up at either place. Again, thanks.

@mesdeuxgarcons : Is Norcal a significantly different vibe from SoCal because I know many SoCal folks tend to like Vanderbilt like schools more so than those that “feel” more like East Coast privates (like NU, WUSTL, Duke, and Ivies/many non-Ivies)? Basically they like schools that are more “homey” but kind of still feel like a UCLA or USC with the sports fervor and the like. Basically the SEC feel of a place like Vanderbilt is appealing to many of them. What I don’t get is why people think the vibes of a place like Vanderbilt and Berkeley are similar. Berkeley seems to give off the common vibe of lots of east coast privates more so than a California public (yes there is school pride and some sports fervor but it also feels intense and academic to a larger degree than UCLA or USC despite the latter 2’s influence in the academic world. The UG student body at Berkeley just felt different to me and many describe it as such. Just less laid back).

It isn’t about which school is better known at this point and more about which of those 4 actually offers what your son wants. They are all good and WUSTL is the most different (though I would put it as more similar to NU despite NU being D-1).

Bernie, you make very good points. Berkeley is a great school. It is very intense. Not sure how to say this…Demographics of Berkeley are very different from all the other schools mentioned. The Asian student population is the largest population on campus. Hispanic is second largest group. Caucasian is now number three. USC is very different makeup. UCLA is more like Cal, but not sure of exact breakdown…I don’t mean any bias, but it does change some of the dynamics of social life vs intensity of study hard only types. Many kids in our town go greek. That subset of students might have some similarities to Vandy greek life. The above comment is merely meant to inform. I hope it does not come off as anything else. If so, I apologize. And I would be thrilled if my S goes to Berkeley, if he doesn’t get in to Vandy or Duke. Writing this post is troubling as I watch the Trump rally protests…I do not wish to incite…

@BigPapiofthree Huh?! (Well, Trump’s rallies kind of deserve protest, and honestly, usually the protesters are at a disadvantage). What you said is just fact and honestly, many top privates look like kind of like that. Emory, where I went has Asians rivaling whites and most of the whites (only 45%) are Jewish(like 30-35% of the campus, so most whites), and like a quarter are URM(blacks and latinos tied- I am in this category). This is pretty typical of many elite schools especially those in or near very large cities. They’re going to have around 30% or more Asians per class. They have different ethos(even those with D-1 sports tend to have social atmospheres more biased toward multi/polycultural organizations and/or other different type of traditions typically not associated with traditional college life at “normal schools”…some students may find it nerdy, weird, lame, or stuffy/stuck-up, which is understandable I guess. You may just want a college that has extremely accomplished and smart students but with more of a traditional social atmosphere.) from places like Vanderbilt, GeorgeTown, and Notre Dame which have a bigger sports fervor and are flat out just more white. Most of the other top privates, even if they claim to be “work hard, play hard” tend to actually be on the more intense side of things (while they don’t have cut-throat competition and are generally collaborative, the pressure is very obvious at them and there is little attempt to mask it).

I personally think that is good if you are pursuing certain majors with the possibility of pursuing the actual field as a career (like grad. school or something-if you want that…you may be thankful for the more academic leaning atmosphere…it often pays), but is less good if you are mainly are just pre-professional choosing what seems to be the logical major for that track (as in, you aren’t really asking for that extra intensity that may take away from other experiences, you just need excellent EC opps, on-campus resources, and an “intense enough” training). Being pre-prof. on many other campuses can just feel much more stressful due to the stress of the other students (Like many such places have far more pre-meds and pre-law students than Vanderbilt. You’re talking 2-3 times at schools roughly the same size! And then you know pre-laws are pretty much only aiming for T-14s. It can make the academic/intellectual environment more interesting as you have more people pursuing extra academic EC opps and projects to get an edge perhaps more so than other types of ECs, but it makes students more antsy and insecure at the same time. The case of the seemingly perfect student worrying that they aren’t doing enough becomes much more common). In that case, I can see why many students could prefer the vibe at a place like Vanderbilt. Going to these types of schools is already going to be harder than normal on the academic side, why go to the places that are hard academically but also have students that stress much more than normal over it? Needless to say such schools stay relevant because I guess many people thrive off the stress and honestly the schools are also more nerd and quirky friendly.

I’m reviving a thread that’s been dormant for a few months simply to say that, after long deliberation, DS has decided to apply ED1 to Vanderbilt and not Duke. He loved the feel of the campus and can definitely achieve his academic goals there. Given that we are from the SF Bay Area, Vanderbilt is a more original choice and, to the extent that it is a more “Southern” school, will actually bring MORE diversity to my son’s experience than Duke would have. So grateful to many posters, and especially @Faline2, for their wisdom and advice spread out over many threads on CC.

I hope your son’s wish to attend Vandy comes true! If not, I am sure he will end up in another fabulous place. Vandy is a magnificent place but in colleges, America is greatly blessed. This reality…that America is rich in colleges that lead to success, should be the underpinning of all parental guidance and advising. Although we opted for private universities, I have now lived long enough to see that students with grit fared very very well from all sorts of colleges- public and private. My Vandy son’s first roommate was from the LA area. Great young man…worked hard and also became a RA which helps cover costs for the parents (reduces room and board costs). open doors for all our young adults and their dreams!

Hey, I’m a freshman who got in ED to Vandy last year with similar numbers to your son. Honestly, I wouldn’t worry about academics as much as social fit when considering these two schools. Vanderbilt and Duke are both prestigious, they both have excellent Economics programs (I’m an Econ major), and you couldn’t go wrong if that’s what he’s ruminating on. However, they’re very different socially. Duke is a lot more arrogant, it’s in the middle of nowhere, the freshmen have to take a bus to campus, and it’s more cutthroat. Of course I’m biased because Vanderbilt’s made me happier in the last two months than I could ever imagine, but one thing that’s stood out to me is the respect that people in Nashville have for the Vandy kids. In Durham, all the residents hate the Duke students because they’re pretentious assholes—no exaggeration, I know people in North Carolina who’ve talked to me about this. Also, don’t look into Peabody too much. The HOD major is cool and all, but it’s generally understood to be for business-interested students who can’t handle economics. Again, take what I’m saying with a grain of salt; both are awesome schools, but because I’m a student here I’ll always think it’s better.

Final note - Duke only has ED1, whereas Vanderbilt has ED1 and ED2. Your son could apply to Duke ED1 and either get in or not. If he doesn’t, he can apply ED2 to Vanderbilt and still have much better odds than applying regular.

@VanderLIT : That sentiment is extremely common in cities where there is a very prestigious PUBLIC (come on, we know which one I’m talking about) university and a very prestigious private university. Most of the in-state people will identify more with the public university which makes sense.

And really, that is the reputation HOD has? That isn’t my understanding (nor does it make much sense, I think Peabody has other undergraduate options that could help those interested in business. Furthermore, I think it and Owen host things like solid summer programs geared toward training those interested. I’m sure the HOD and Peabody folks have just as much access to that sort of thing as any other major and THAT is what you’d want to take advantage of. With exception of some schools, no one will be particularly wowed by the fact someone majored in econ. versus something else unless the econ. major developed a strong math background. The schools where the econ. majors are given a leg up are those that typically have more rigorous quantitative and even theoretical training…and we have an idea of what some of those places are)…people wanting to do business will need to take econ. and math classes anyway and Vanderbilt’s econ. requirements are at least a little less stringent than other schools (like they do not require econometrics for example). This alumni poster on here in fact says that econ. there is very doable. As for undergraduate econ., Duke is simply known to be one of the more rigorous programs now-a-days. They can both be good at the graduate level (methinks they both are) but one who knows anything about the academy also knows that these two, graduate program success/research productivity hardly correlates cleanly with undergraduate program strength and certainly not the teaching. Often the two missions compete unless instructional faculty (lecturers) are used heavily in one department.

There are just some academic (UG) differences between schools that are real and others that aren’t…like Duke being more competitive for math or econ, and in many life sciences I’ve seen stuff in things like physics and engineering, and they appear very comparable to me. But differences do exist in certain areas because each has clearly decided where and where not to invest heavily into undergraduate education. You can find these differences comparing any elite schools, even tippy tops. Like if I’m a true science nerd, I will take Caltech, Harvard, MIT, and maybe Princeton over most other places because their curricula are more “up to date” and are specifically designed to train future scientists. That doesn’t mean other places don’t do it well, it just means that their programs are top notch even among top schools. Obviously if I’m CS, I’m looking to the Georgia Techs(strong curriculum, great industry connections and co-op program), Stanford (location anyone?), and Carnegie Mellon (innovative curriculum).

If one is pre-professional and not looking to really have an industry or academic career in their major, then one should likely care less about such differences, and simply go to a good school with a befitting social life, but if the level and type of academic training matters (as it does with many students with tons of AP credits or experience in their areas of interest already, like many that go to elite schools, especially the tippy tops), then the academic differences, if they exist should not be just completely overlooked or assumed to be equal.