Vanderbilt Premed Weed Out

Colleges and Universities A-Z Vanderbilt University
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@derp125 : I think Brown and Stanford are the issue…The pre-med core science courses at Harvard are curved (yes curved. For example, if you find the course website for their chem 27 from a while back, the first exam mean was a 40 and the others did not really go higher than 65…so they are making Harvard caliber students really struggle…and if you see the content, you’ll know it isn’t just them slacking off) to about a B and are actually significantly harder than most elite schools. Vanderbilt’s science grading is in line with Hopkins, Emory, WashU, Northwestern, Chicago, Rice, Duke (Duke has gone up outside of STEM, but that is it), Cornell, Columbia, and elite publics I guess, with all having some (a good share at that) professors that curve or have grade distributions near C+/B- in or B-/B in pre-med heavy courses that are on the more rigorous side. Vanderbilt isn’t special there. Yale, Brown, and Stanford are the main 3 that happen to also grade significantly higher in the sciences. Vanderbilt is not particularly advantageous versus other elites in that regard…to claim that there is something specifically wrong with pre-med there, then you’d have to cite something else I guess. You seem to air on the same side as a friend of mine (now in medical school) that expresses apprehension toward going to any elite school for pre-med in general (unless it is those 3 I mention). Mind you he had very good stats (near 4.0), but he recognizes that his talent gets drowned out by similar caliber applicants from the same school that also had much better EC’s in terms of applying to elite medical schools. He landed at a pretty good one though.

@JustOneDad : I kind of agree, but it really depends on the problem types. Students tend to struggle with more conceptual types of problems in seemingly math oriented classes like chemistry, and tend to struggle with things like understanding data and experimentation in classes like general biology. For the first time ever, simple plug and chug and memorization may not work, especially if you are at an elite school taking an intro. science instructor that is testing how they are supposed to. The trick is usually to stick to the scheme you said but get good enough to perform well on or at least score on any curveball, tricker, or higher ordered prompts that may be on the exam. There is usually 1-2 such questions like that in gen. chem and gen. biology at schools like that and a poor performance on them can sink the whole exam score. In addition, poor multiple choice performance can also do it. And those can be tricky on chem. test (from I saw on Vandy’s biol tests, the FR was tougher and the multiple choice was direct and fact recall/basic understanding).

Another thing is also to be able to recognize a particular problem type. Often times instructors will not just repeat book and p-set problems with different numbers but will instead put them as a word problem, make a completely new problem type out of the basic one that was practiced over and over again…and many other techniques. If one is used to being “directly” tested like many in HS are) merely on what problem types and concepts that were already done in class or via HW, then many will be in shock the first round of exams if they have a reasonably challenging instructor.

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Quoting @derp125 above,

“With that being said, Vandy is not the best place to go for premed. A lot of incoming freshman have this misconception so let me clear it up: Vandy’s MEDICAL SCHOOL is good, Vandy’s PREMED PROGRAM is not. The grade deflation is rampant, and the argument that school name is a factor becomes moot once you start comparing applicants from other top schools. We’re going to be competing with Harvard and Brown applicants who have an average GPA of 3.6, and it’s not like we have an advantage over them in terms of school name.”

Brown is much better for pre-meds. I do not go there and do not know for certain. However, Vanderbilt is terrible for premed. There are too many requirements (AXLE, pre-med reqs, major reqs), and taking 5+ courses (with labs no less) per semester is horrible for pre-meds. Lab courses here are designed for you to fail. TAs are ruthless and do not care at all about you or your grades. There’s an “every man for himself” outlook here.

“Transfer out while you can. I’m a senior now and one of the biggest mistakes of my life was staying at Vandy as a premed. If you’re deadset on staying at Vandy, take as many prereqs at your state school over the summer if you can. If you don’t want to do THAT, prepare to study during every waking moment of your life. And forget about research/volunteering/shadowing, which means that all of your hard work will have been wasted anyways lol. And the worst part is, you probably won’t even get a 4.0 no matter how hard you try.”

I transferred here premed from Hamilton College, a private liberal arts college. It was a great place for premeds. The professors were there to help you, the labs were there to help you and are taught by extraordinary professors. You would not lose points for messing up during a lab – it’s a learning experience! Professors welcomed questions and would help tremendously during lab. Here at Vanderbilt, your lab grade is destroyed if you so much as ask for help. It really depends on your TAs; I guess I got the cruelest ones here.

Premed exams were extremely challenging at Hamilton College too, do not get my wrong, but there were homework assignments and lab assignments that were designed to help your GPA to compensate for low exam grades which happen. Here at Vandy, you have a bad exam grade and you are screwed. A lot of times bad exam grades are due to stupid mistakes – things that do not make you less intelligent. Labs are graded unfairly here as well. My TA at Vandy told me I had one of the best labs – but he refused to give me anything higher than a B+ for no good reason. Back at Hamilton College, I had the best bio lab report in the class, and as such got an A+ on it. Am I less intelligent here at Vanderbilt, getting a B+ when I deserve an A? No, that is just the grade deflation. Do medical schools truly know this? I would say no–they aren’t really aware of how unfair it truly is for premeds here.

There really is major grade deflation here, so if you are premed this is not the best place for it. I’m no longer premed because of this school. For me, this is fine – I actually realized that I did not want to go to 4 years of medical school followed by 6 years of training. I’m switching to Computer Science and applying for jobs right out of college. I would say Vanderbilt is great for this, because companies are always coming to hire Vanderbilt CS majors.

If I wanted to be premed, I would transfer back to Hamilton College in a heartbeat. The pre-health department was very nurturing and helpful. You have to work for grades there, but A’s are attainable.

Someone told me something like 70% of students here retake Organic Chemistry. That’s unheard of for other schools. Why would they make it so impossibly hard that everyone has to retake it?

If your dream truly is to become a doctor, I personally would transfer out either to Brown, any small private liberal arts school with a strong premed program, or your home state school that also has a strong premed program.

Just my two cents.

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@nyjetsny1 Thank you for your input!

When do you think is the best time for me to transfer out? Right after fall semester?

If I transfer, do you think I still have time to make up for my low GPA at Vanderbilt?

How hard do you think it is to transfer to Brown? Especially with my low Vanderbilt GPA?

Thank you all for the support!

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(By the way, if anyone was wondering, I made a C on my biology test after studying weeks for it.)

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Oh please…a C on an exam is so easy to come back from…whose section are you in again? Also, do not try to transfer to Brown…you won’t get in with a lower GPA and in addition, you don’t even know it will be low.

A C? come on…please. You just didn’t study correctly. Once you start studying correctly, the score will improve…use the first exam format to figure out a step by step study strategy. You were talking like you scored an F. Also…pre-med at Brown? I don’t think their students actually care for it that much. Many articles at Brown complain about the nature of the intro. and intermediate courses. Also, the general biology sequence at Brown is lecture based and is MUCH harder than most of the sections at Vandy. Their chemistry classes…I wouldn’t put those anywhere near the upper echelon. The only difference at Brown is that the curve is more generous. They aren’t known for being particularly special for pre-med. Also, AXLE requirements could theoretically help boost overall GPA…though Brown has kind of an “open” curriculum, studies show that students don’t really take advantage of it, especially those on pre-prof. tracks. BTW, at Emory I got a C (smack dab on the mean!) on my first biol exam after taking it seriously, and then did well on the others after figuring out a legit study strategy based on the format. I then studied and stressed less, and got better grades. I also had to change my study strategy after my second ochem exam (I was taking ochem and biology as a freshman) because the instructor changed the format of the exam to something significantly more difficult and I my uncurved (without bonus points) score dipped to the C+ (and yes, I wasn’t complacent…I actually studied “harder” than the first) area after scoring A on the first. I bounced back by the end of the semester though.

As for Hamilton vs. Vanderbilt? Is that fair?..an LAC vs. a research university…most experts know that STEM education (in the classroom) is typically richer and technically more rigorous at LAC’s. There is much literature out about this issue. Research universities are exactly as described by that poster. Most intro/intermediates will be exam and quiz based and less personal so you will lose points in random places from TA’s and such. The question I always ask about science courses and their difficulty is: is it difficult because it is a) detail/memorization oriented or is it tough because it is super critical thinking/application and problem solving oriented? If the latter, then the course and the instructor is doing their job (especially if it is an elite school), and if the former is all…then shame on them. Going to Brown will not rectify that issue. It could very well be better than Vandy in some areas, but not really enough to transfer to it thinking it is some gold standard of pre-med and STEM education because it isn’t (additionally, it certainly will not solve your study strategy issue. You can screw up there as well and only get a B in your courses if it is below the mean). I can think of several elite privates (higher and lower) that are better or more consistent at least across life science courses…

Stop freaking out and figure out a study strategy seriously. Your situation is honestly easy to turn around as you have like 2 exams and a final left I think. And if there so happens to be a curve…then even better…it will benefit you and forgive that low score if you improve. Also, in subsequent semesters, maybe be more conscious about which instructor you choose. Try to see if they are a better fit for your learning style. You seem to like more engaging instructors…so find those if they exist. By time you get to upperlevel say…biology classes, you’ll have much more freedom. In addition, I’ve seen some of those contents and materials and not all are more difficult than intro. Some are flat out easier and grade easier as well. Ochem at Vandy isn’t bad either (I would argue it is harder at Brown but neither have particularly hard instructors). You grades will likely go up through the rest of this semester, be higher second semester, and certainly be higher next year. There is actually a rare poster (from Vandy) on here who experienced a similar disappointment their freshman year and they are doing EXTREMELY well now. I think he got 4.0 his sophomore year or very close.

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For bio, don’t read the book (for 1st semester I can only speak for Broadie/Zwiebel). Download the power points ahead of time and take notes on your computer. Record the lectures and go over them if you feel you missed something or want to hear the lecture a 2nd time. Memorize the slides/your added notes to the best of your ability… everything on the exam will be covered in class so reading is really a waste of your time. If you really don’t understand something you would probably save time by going in and talking to your professor rather than reading the book.

Also, I got a 49 (curved to a C) on my first exam although it was dropped thanks to their policy. I ended up with a B+ 1st semester and an A- 2nd semester (would have gotten an A but had bad study habits). Honestly, if your study skills are anything better than mine, you can definitely still get an A in the course. Obviously you should memorize a little everyday rather than wait until a night or two before the exam which is what I did and would not recommend.

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Daisy, don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Almost all students go through this with their first STEM test. You aren’t in Kansas anymore but you will adjust to the new rigor of your classes. Keep your head up.

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Daisy, FWIW, if I remember correctly, D also made a C on her first chem exam, and got an A- first semester. She got an A second semester.
Please don’t freak out and give up so soon if this is what you really want.

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@Belle315 What study habits did your daughter change in order to score higher on the rest of the exams? Thanks!

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Hmm. I do think she came to a similar conclusion as @Suffer about spending more time on the notes/slides and slightly less on reading the material. However, I know she still read all the material ahead of class time because she did feel it helped.

I think more than anything she just learned to anticipate the types of questions and the levels of difficulty for the exams. She made a few careless errors on her first test, so she learned to slow down and really read the problems/instructions before jumping into a calculation, etc.

I will ask her if there is anything specific that she changed about her study habits. Just be encouraged that there is a learning curve that most students go through with the first test in these types of classes, and a C is really ok at this point. I say this not only as a mom whose D went through it just a year ago, but as a former undergrad Biology major who went through it herself back in the Stone Age.

Sending you mom hugs. It’s true what they say about this being a marathon…

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Weirdly enough…there is a pattern here. I did better in biology when I more so focused on the slides…that first semester where I did bad on the test was the memorization oriented semester…the tests were very detailed oriented and focused on lecture content so knowing content of power point slides was important. If there are any problem sets associated with the lecture component of biology at Vanderbilt, please do them even if optional. I figured out, in my class, that any higher ordered/more difficult prompts were very similar to problem sets. Then I adapted for 2nd semester when the class focused more on experimentation and relied more on problem sets than even the lecture slides…(all MC and FR questions were very scenario and experiment based, so simply knowing facts would get you nowhere near a passing grade that semester. If you couldn’t interpret an experiment or make a prediction, you were screwed…practice was critical to be successful). One just has to adapt to the demands and style of the class…if the first test revealed itself to be detail oriented and lecture based, then memorize the ppts. verbatim almost. If critical thinking oriented, do problems frequently and maybe use the book or ppts as a reference to set up foundation knowledge. If the biology class fits the latter description, you should study for it like you would a chemistry class almost (less things to know and more things to know how to do). .

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Ok guys, I hate to be “that” guy, but let’s try to be realistic here. I’m going to assume OP got a 75 on her test. Even if she gets 100 on the next 3 tests (including the final), she’ll get a 93 in the class. If she gets 90s on the next three tests, she’ll get an 86 in the class.

Now sure, there is a TINY curve at the end of the class by a percent or two, so in all likelihood, OP will probably get an 88% in the class (and that’s only IF she gets 90s her last three tests). That’s a B+. A B+ is a 3.3 on the grading scale. Yes, AXLE will dilute your cumulative GPA, but your science GPA is also calculated separately. A 3.3 science GPA is low for med school. Sure, maybe Vandy students get a slight edge, but compare a 3.3 GPA from Vandy to a 3.9 from a state school.

Is it worth it to put in all of the extra time? What about your other classes? What about your ECs? What about shadowing and volunteering? What about research? Just remember that premeds in state schools (and other top 20s like Brown) are putting in a lot less effort for the exact same grade that you’re going to get.

EDIT: Also, it’s not like the other prereqs are gonna be that much easier. You might be better at a certain prereq than another, but with the way things are going, it seems likely that you’re going to be in the B range for your prereqs. That’s a bad thing.

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The point is: She will probably not do badly…She will have something decent (like a B+ or A-, B if unfortunate) if she gets it together. The other posters have basically suggested that there is some sort of curve or forgiveness. It is just one class that she may get a B grade in for the semester…no need to assume it will happen in the others. There is no evidence for that. That pretty much assumes that she will study the exact same for each pre-req and refuses to adapt. I hope that is not the case. In addition, there are the non-cores that count toward the science GPA that are viewed as on par with the pre-reqs if not better. By time they get to those courses, they should be able to make A grades. Advanced biology courses, for example, often have challenge, but aren’t really out to weed folks out. Usually at most schools, what you put in is what you get out for those. Vandy seems no different. None of the upperlevel biology’s appeared super hard or unusually problem solving oriented (thus requiring different strategies than lower division courses that may catch students off guard. If anything, it appeared that the content load was heavier and more challenging to understand). The only one I saw with an instructor on the truly tough side was maybe the genetics instructor (I didn’t see the “clocks” stuff before but I hear that one is a bit different as well). The other courses were more like “medium” for an elite. Challenging but aceable is what I call medium. Also usually, a 3.3-3.6 science GPA coupled with a strong non-science GPA to boost the overall is enough to get people into some US med (allopathic) school. This has been my observation among several friends who were in that boat. Some even got into solid ones (not top 20-25 but maybe in the 30’s or 40’s). I also honestly believe that an A in ochem there is very doable (maybe even more than gen. chem) if you just do the work. None of the instructors (even Sulikowski) are asking students to do super high level applications that strongly deviate from the lectures or classpacks. Don’t discourage Daisy like this. There are of course some hurdles that are bound to happen at a school of Vanderbilt’s caliber, but they are not insurmountable.

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It seems 91% (not sure what the applicant pool was) of Brown students are accepted into Medical school whereas 66% (1st time applicants) are accepted for Vanderbilt. National average is 43%.

http://as.vanderbilt.edu/hpao/documents/2014_Annual_Report.pdf
http://www.brown.edu/academics/college/advising/health-careers/medical-admission-data-snapshot

I think the only good thing about going to Vanderbilt as an undergrad is that Vandy’s med school likes to self select. Last year at a med school info session, one of the admissions officers mentioned that they recognize Vanderbilt’s difficulty and add like .1-.2 to your GPA.

Also note that Vandy’s med school is superior (14 v 35 I think) to Brown’s.

Also @derp125 what is your ideal number for the amount of shadowing/volunteering/research you should be doing? From what I hear about volunteering and shadowing, the commitments don’t seem that extreme (a few hours a week, you don’t have to commit every week)

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Well, lemme just give you an example of one of my days (this was today actually lol). Wake up at 8:30, go to class until 2, eat until 3, volunteer at the hospital from 3-6, eat dinner from 6-7, chill from 7-8, start studying from 8-whenever.

Idk, that three hours of volunteering is a big chunk of time. And if OP is already studying this much for just ONE class, I feel like she’ll need all the time that she can get. And it’s only going to get harder from here. Calc, physics, orgo, all that. There’s just not enough time in the day to study enough to get good grades. So which do I sacrifice? Grades or ECs? Not having either is killer.

On varying days of the week, I shadow, do research (which is from 3-9), or do some other random volunteer activities.

EDIT: Of course, if I went to my state school, that study time would be more than enough. That’s the point I was trying to make in my other posts. You have to work way harder at Vandy to get the exact same results as a state school student.

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@derp, just curious- what year are you in?

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Senior

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I agree with Bernie here. A C in your first STEM test is no reason to panic. Relax you don’t need to transfer. She will adjust and should do better. After you survive the 5 week out classes she can bump her GPA up in other STEM and non-STEM classes. DERP is correct in saying Brown is heaven for premeds, state U’s are easier, and it is ridiculous to have a average test score in the 70’s for an intro classes when you have the top 1 percenter students sitting in the class.
Yes, a C is upsetting for students who have never seen a C in there life but its not time to transfer. People are like cockroaches in that they will adjust to a new environment. Med schools like to see perseverance and some toughness. Most will ask for a difficult situation you had to overcome. The problem students from the state schools have is there are thousands of applicants with high GPA’s and it is difficult for them to stand out to the med school adcom’s.

One last point is Daisy has a unique skill set that is in short supply in medicine. She loves to write. Be an English comp major and bump the GPA and separate yourself for all the STEM applicants. In the spring meet with the hospital department research coordinators and tell them you want to learn to review and edit research papers before they send them off for publication. You have a valued skill set.

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@derp125 I agree with you.

It still boggles my mind why someone nowadays would go to a university like Vanderbilt for pre-med where the competition is so stiff. I did so years ago before things were so competitive, but I’m not sure I would have done as well if I were there now as a pre-med.

The bottom line: take it easy on yourself and your wallet and go to a state uni where you can be a star.

If you are already at Vandy and doing poorly in pre-med prerequisites, consider transferring out before you do irreparable damage to your med school chances.

Grade deflation at elite unis only makes it harder for excellent students to get into professional or grad school. This is why some universities like Princeton dropped their grade deflation policies.

I hate to talk strictly in terms of return on investment, but the conversation needs to be had. When full-pay students spend $250,000 for the privilege to go to Vanderbilt and then can’t advance to the next level of education in their desired profession, then it truly becomes a question of whether the expense was justified.

Sure, you got to study with some interesting and brilliant people for 4 years.
Sure, you were “enlightened” by your education.

When, however, your B or B+ GPA doesn’t cut it for med school apps, was it really worth it?

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It is ONE CLASS and ONE TEST…people chill. You all talk like a bunch of neurotic pre-meds like Daisy’s life is over. Also, Brown’s numbers. Elite schools are all beyond the national average but are notorious for fudging them. Also, schools with lower amounts of people applying will have an edge as there can be saturation (like at Emory and JHU for example where, if you include reapplicants, maybe 400+ apply in some years and 300+ w/o reapplicants).

As for the “70% average for top 1%”…who cares? That is normalization. That is arguing that a place like Vanderbilt or any school with a bunch of capable students should simply give the same level of training as other schools just to keep folks’ grades up. The point is…they are supposed to be different and indeed are. No one complains about Harvard’s STEM classes being too tough. They just accept that it is an HYP level school and eventually get over it and work harder at this point. 60-70% averages are very common there as well and they have to make the exams really tough to get it there, again being much tougher than most elites.