Vanderbilt Premed Weed Out

How difficult is Vanderbilt’s premed?

I am taking some general science courses right now. I don’t learn much from the professor’s lectures. Instead, I learn pretty much everything by myself. Each class holds 200+ students, and I am not getting the attention I need in order to actually learn the material deeper. Even though I use all the resources on campus–tutoring, professor office hours, and TA office hours, I am struggling with the material. I study constantly, don’t go to parties, and sometimes skip meals to study. (I usually get only 5.5-6 hours/day of sleep.)

I am very disappointed right now because despite all my efforts, I did very poorly on my science test. I am steadfast in becoming a doctor yet the required sciences courses at Vanderbilt will certainly bring down my GPA. My passion is medicine, and I still want to pursue that dream. I am a very hard worker: I am willing to put in any amount of work to make my dream into a reality.

What should I do next? How difficult is it to stay in Vanderbilt’s premed program? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

Don’t let the first test bring you down. This was probably your first major college midterm, and you will get used to the rigor. The PCC has also academic workshops if you’re feeling too stressed out. I would still say that going to office hours is one of the best ways to study. Try forming study groups with the people in your class.

Don’t give up on your premed dreams, as most people do. Perseverance will take you a long way in life. If you fell you’re the only one struggling, I can assure you that you’re not. No one gets As all the time in weed out classes. Maybe take a few easy-A AXLE classes to boost your GPA?

@Daisy246 : Oh dear, I’m trying to figure out why your performance on first exams is being used to predict your performance in both the course and future science courses…

a) Please eat
b) Please sleep
c) Chill and find a more effective way of studying. Things like general chemistry can be learned without the lecturer at a solid level…you just need to be more aggressive, and that doesn’t necessarily mean studying for a higher amount of time so much as distributing your time wisely and staying ahead of the curve. For example, I would certainly be at least attempting more difficult book problems assigned like several days before the exam…
d) with that said, I cannot make suggestions unless you tell me what you do to prepare as honestly as possible) in the “meantime” and also what you do as an exam nears (I also would like to know what you consider as “near exam”). You can either post it here or PM me. And if you are taking something like gen. chem, I am glad to randomly add to the help you are getting. I like teaching/explaining chemical concepts that I understand to people, and my gen. chem and ochem game is quite strong if I do say so myself lol :wink: .
e) You are certainly not the only trying to figure things out…just because everyone is smart does not mean they are perfect and perfectly prepared for every course and task they undertake. The fact is, due to the environmental conditions you cite (large lectures and stuff), college science courses, especially at elites are certainly a different ballgame than HS unless your HS background in said areas was truly superb.
f) It is up to YOU to figure out whether or not and how long you will stay on the track. I don’t think Vandy kicks people off…as most schools do not. But you have like the rest of this year and maybe another year to keep trying and then reflect and decide. Even if you are not in the best position by then, for those who are really serious about improving until they are competitive, there are ways, even if you can’t go right after college! If you truly want to and have the drive to be a doctor, you’ll eventually find some way to pull through.

g) In reference to f) Please always remember that something like pre-med or any pre-prof/pre-grad endeavor is a personal journey. Often it is such a competitive atmosphere at schools like this (or one tricks themselves into feeling that way) that one forgets this and constantly measures successes relative to other people and also jump on bandwagons that say, for example, “I must absolutely go to medical school directly after my four years because if I do so that proves I am smart or as good as anyone else”…the fact is, that means nothing at all. The goal is to get to your goal via your own journey and not the ones that others try to impose or pressure you into thinking is ideal. Remember that your ultimate goal should be to become a doctor and not impress your peers or family with your “seamless” and “smooth” journey to it. It is this that often deters a lot of people pre-maturely. They believe that if things aren’t working like they are for everyone else, then things cannot work out at all…and unfortunately one may begin ingraining such ideas as early as a bad freshman year exam.

Thanks for all the advice. I appreciate it. @Sophie1295 @bernie12

Do you think I should transfer schools if I am very set on becoming a doctor? I love everything about Vanderbilt but I need a high GPA to achieve my ultimate dream: to get into medical school.

@Daisy246 Uhmmm…no, please calm down. Med. schools look for upward trends. If you screw up this year, just improve in subsequent years (which is the general pattern among most college students). Experience will likely enhance your study skills over time. Also, stop writing yourself off because of the first exam round. Doesn’t gen. biology and chemistry there have like a total of 3 midterms and a final?

What you are going through is very common after the first STEM test. Fall semester is a time for adjustment: new home, friends, academic rigor, new study habits, and for the first time in your life you are not the smartest kid in the room. You will adjust and by Thanksgiving figure things out and have time to eat, sleep, and even go out with friends. It sounds like you are doing the right things. Also look for a peer group to study with. The same classes next semester will seem much easier after you adjust.

Also, stop blaming Vanderbilt for your low performance.

Huh?! Not sleeping and not eating IS NOT doing the right thing (if that is being sacrificed to a large extent, something has to give). Even if OP was prepared for her exams content wise, this can negatively affect the performance. I just got through talking to a bunch of folks I mentor and help w/ochem who got the results of their first exam and basically all of them performed lower (if not much lower) than their readiness and even predicted performance while taking the exam because of a mixture of sleep deprivation and lack of caution. One must be very careful about maintaining health as it contributes a lot to one’s mental state, especially during an exam where professors intentionally put a) very challenging problems or b) problems that are slightly deeper or require more nuance than they appear to upon first glance. Without much sleep and a generally over-stressed mindset, one is more likely to either miss out on some of these nuances or flat out freak out and blank when they encounter a challenging curveball type of problem.

Wouldn’t just going to a public school make life a lot easier? I would have a higher gpa, and I also have the motivation to study very hard for the MCAT. Medical schools care more about the numbers than about the college brands.

I don’t want to be pulling hairs and always stressed out just for a 3.5 at Vandy. It will hurt my chances at medical school, and at the same time I will not be enjoying my college experience.

Don’t get me wrong: Vandy was my dream school and still is. The environment, research opportunities, and people are more that I could have ever dreamed of. I absolutely love my writing courses. The academics for science and engineering here, however, are questionable. I don’t see how Vanderbilt’s science department differs from a public school’s. Big lecture halls, unpersonalized attention, and unclear labs. Even though I use all the resources here to better my understanding on lectures and textbook concepts, the tests deviate from the lectures and textbook problems.

In the end, I am planning on majoring in science, yet I now attend a weak STEM school. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Maybe you need to try to enjoy your college experience and stop tearing your hair out right now and you’ll perform better…Also, depends on the public school. I hate to be blunt, but many public school science courses can be as hard if not more difficult than some top private counterparts (I know we like to think we’re special, but in many cases we aren’t. Usually the introductory courses…sure, but many Vandy instructors for say organic…differ none from what I saw at UGA, if anything the UGA tests I saw were flat out harder. Gen. chem was comparable yet they throw like 500-1000 students in an auditorium with a balcony to “learn” the material), especially if you speak of like a flagship (like my UGA example). Often upperlevel courses are much more consistent than at a private school where you may run into the lazy research oriented instructor who’d rather just water down their course than deal with students who expect high grades. The fact is, unless the public school is struggling to have a decent graduation rate, then many intermediate and advanced instructors have no incentive to make things easier. In addition, if you run into difficult instructors at a public school, the lecture hall will be even larger and it will be even more isolating.

There is also the issue that Vandy and schools like it are more likely to offer “well-taught” intermediates or upperlevels that are better prep. for the MCAT. This will ultimately make studying for the MCAT easier because you not only know the content (because in these better classes, you were taught more and deeper content), but you also know it in more challenging “contexts”. Remember the MCAT is passage/case/scenario based. The more your courses build a skill to handle that sort of thing the better because it is hard to reteach yourself the content and how to think about it like they want to on the MCAT. The MCAT problems will no doubt “deviate” from your Kaplan or Princeton review books…private schools prep you for this well. Also, again, Vandy’s classes are normal sized for medium sized private schools. Generally, say Duke, JHU, Harvard, etc. have similar sized sections for intro. and intermediate pre-med science courses. The schools with smaller and differently taught ones include Duke (changed their biology to be flipped a couple of years ago), Rice (lots of things going on here), Chicago(math and many other things are a bit different), Emory (chemistry is flipped and biology is not pure lecture), WashU (chemistry), and maybe Harvard (if you consider Life sciences 1a), MIT (TEAL option for physics) but with those exceptions, the decent sized lecture reigns supreme at medium-sized and large privates. Public schools, especially the prestigious ones, and many flagships are actually a step ahead in this arena.

If you are really concerned with the science education there, as opposed to just your grades, maybe consider a public school that is known to do it well (I like Michigan, UMD College Park, and some others…lots of money and effort has gone into their science curricula to make it more rigorous, problem solving oriented, and less lecture based) and is migrating away from lecture for several of its pre-med oriented science classes. There are many that you should be able to find…but don’t simply find one that is merely easier because you may pay in terms of quality and while you may be “more motivated” to study for the MCAT, you will be less capable of getting the most out of that studying. Consider this. If you cannot get yourself in a position to be sucessful on an in class science midterm at Vanderbilt, what exactly makes you think the MCAT will be easier? Better to keep trying and change your strategies so that you can get to that level now than riding high on the confidence you get from having a very high GPA at an easy school and then getting slammed down by your MCAT score. This type of thing happens all of the time even among students who took an ACT/SAT well.

Also, your issue with freshman science class labs is not new. It honestly sounds like you are overall disappointed with undergraduate science education…the issues you cite are not new to any school. Some just try harder (like getting money) to make changes on a larger scale and sometimes those attempts to change fail (like Duke taking until maybe last year or a year ago to implement its “research based” general chemistry. It tried it in 2006 and bombed and now the current version is only a shadow of the original 2006 plan with lecture still being the primary method of delivery. Biology went much better EXCEPT that last I checked the gen. biol there gave all multiple choice exams with the questions being intensive and convoluted…at that point short answer is appropriate). Change in STEM education is really hard. Keep in mind that your instructors “learned” via these modes so assume that current students do as well and thus mimic what their instructors did. In addition, changing delivery methods is risky because they would have to switch to more active learning which often gets resistance from students (and thus results in lower evals). The students may learn more, but they don’t like it because it requires more effort.

I did really poorly on my first few exams but ended up doing very well in my classes. Even now, I don’t always start strong. Sometimes it just takes some time to get yourself into a test taking mentality or it may take time to get used to that professor’s exam style.

Yeah, I’m pretty sure many folks if not almost a majority have a 1st exam learning curve. Instead of pannicking and thinking about transferring, just plan something else and/or ask or observe what other students do that may have made them more successful. Assuming that “lots of effort” should automatically just work is faulty. It could be a very time-consuming and ultimately ineffective method of studying.

Daisy, yes a public school will be much easier (other than the top publics) but keep in mind med schools will have thousands of applicants from non-rigorous U’s with high GPA’s and only 150 spots. Also consider Vandy grads with >3.3 GPA and >30 MCAT score have an 83% accptance rate to med school (Vandy Health Advisory Co). Since the average Vandy student has a 3.45 GPA (Greek data) and an average MCAT score of 31 (old MCAT) you only need to be in the middle of the bell curve for Vandy students.

You will adjust to the new academic rigor. Most STEM students will get punched in the face with the first STEM test but hang in there.

Be careful with those stats…they are kind of tricky to interpret. It makes it sound like 3.3 is just some magical threshold. The reality is that a lot more people are applying at the high and middle end of that range than the bottom…if more people were applying with those exact stats, the rate would start to decrease. The average Vandy student is probably not a STEM major, so also be careful with that GPA statistic. I would however encourage Daisy to stay in there.

We figured out on another thread that applicants with GPA in the 3.3<x<3.4 range and 30<x MCAT had an acceptance rate of 57% (8 out of 14).

With that being said, Vandy is not the best place to go for premed. A lot of incoming freshman have this misconception so let me clear it up: Vandy’s MEDICAL SCHOOL is good, Vandy’s PREMED PROGRAM is not. The grade deflation is rampant, and the argument that school name is a factor becomes moot once you start comparing applicants from other top schools. We’re going to be competing with Harvard and Brown applicants who have an average GPA of 3.6, and it’s not like we have an advantage over them in terms of school name.

I remember the OP from a few weeks ago and he/she was extremely paranoid about how hard the weedout classes were going to be. Well now you know. The classes are designed for you to fail. They don’t want you to be premed. I lost count of how many times I wished I went to my state school. I could have easily gotten a 4.0 (seen my brother’s tests from my state school), could have studied on my own for the MCAT, and easily found the same research/volunteering positions at my state school.

Whenever someone asks me if they should apply to Vandy, the first thing I ask them is: are you premed. If they are, do not come to Vandy. Sure, undergrad prestige plays the smallest of parts in med school applications, but even a moron would know that a 4.0 from a state school trumps a 3.3 from Vandy. No questions asked.

Transfer out while you can. I’m a senior now and one of the biggest mistakes of my life was staying at Vandy as a premed. If you’re deadset on staying at Vandy, take as many prereqs at your state school over the summer if you can. If you don’t want to do THAT, prepare to study during every waking moment of your life. And forget about research/volunteering/shadowing, which means that all of your hard work will have been wasted anyways lol. And the worst part is, you probably won’t even get a 4.0 no matter how hard you try.

@derp125

I thought Vanderbilt limited the number of classes you can take at other colleges. On the website, it says a student may only transfer two classes from another college. Is this true?

Also, if I were to transfer now, I would have 6 Ws on my transcript. Is this advisable?

Thank you for your help!

I mean, that rule exists, but you can still take multiple classes at your state school. It’s just that only two of them will count as Vandy credits, so make sure you plan your schedule so that you have enough credits to graduate.

Don’t transfer in the middle of the semester. W’s are almost as bad as F’s. Push through this semester and accept your bad GPA, and start preparing transfer forms so that you can switch ASAP. Again, DO NOT CREATE W’S ON YOUR TRANSCRIPT.

Objective data from Vandy Health Professions Advisory Report for 2013 and 2014.

First time applicants with:
GPA >3.5 and MCAT > 30…156 accepted out of 177 apps= 88% admitted
GPA 3.4-3.5 and MCAT >30…18/26= 69% admitted
GPA 3.3-3.4 and MCAT >30…12/23=52% admitted

For those not accepted on first attempt who reapply the following year.

GPA > 3.5 and MCAT> 30…12/15= 80% admitted
GPA 3.4-3.5 and MCAT > 30…3/4= 75% admitted
GPA 3.3-3.4 and MCAT > 30…8/10= 80% admitted…80%!

It looks like med school ADCOM’s understand the rigor at Vandy. Pre meds should have a plan to survive the 5 main weed out classes: the 1st chem, bio, calc,physics, orgo. Schools want the weed out process to occur fall semester so students can change majors and still graduate on time.

  1. Start off with a soft schedule fall fresh year to generate a solid GPA.
  2. AP out of Calc and take stats…you just survived 20% of the weed out process.
  3. Use summer school to take 2 of the weed out classes…you now have survived 60% of the weed out process.
  4. Limit hours to 12-14 when taking the other 2 weed out classes.
  5. Major in a subject you are most gifted and bump up the GPA.
  6. Play the GPA game.
  7. You need research, service, medical exposure, and leadership experience.
  8. Prepare for the MCAT like your career depends on it.

What did you get on your first test anyways? I feel like that’s kinda important.

Maybe you’re approaching it wrong. It’s usually not necessary to learn general science courses “deeper”. That usually comes in upper division courses. General science courses actually have pretty basic concepts that need to be absorbed. If you can identify what those are from the lectures and syllabus and do the problem sets as indicated by practice exams or whatever, you might be in better shape.