@fdgjfg : Basically all of their requirements are more demanding or more nuanced than other schools…naturally they don’t really desire “cookie cutter” pre-meds that played the game to success. I’ve seen so many “paper perfect” (4.0, 36-38 MCAT) applicants get denied post-interview and they often tended to be the duller ones with duller course loads (many acceptees would be the weird biology majors who took advanced math like multi or diff.eq or higher level chemistry or physics courses) and no major international/national awards to complement their achievements (other than Phi Beta Kappa, which most people with 3.9+ will have and which Harvard gets tons of) and the more regular course load students of course had insane (and not pre-med standard) EC’s. They aren’t that desperate to fill the doctor shortage there. They simply want very high performance/extraordinary pre-meds that did extremely well, but not neccessarily under carefully crafted conditions…this is honestly why I wouldn’t use Harvard as a benchmark. Many students who truly are desirable post-interview are quite extraordinary in some way including academically.
Stanford used to be this way as well (they actually used to have a note on their website that said they liked people who took upperlevel chemistry courses like pchem!)…but lesser so than Harvard. Their MCAT scores show that they prefer high stats applicants that have met the requirements and maybe did something cool, but overall their admit rate is so low that it is hard to tell. It seems one is more likely to be denied HMS than Stanford (I’ve seen this many times and didn’t get it at all…maybe HMS is like how Stanford undergrad admits and SMS is more like Harvard undergrad in its admissions scheme) though which is interesting since HMS accepts a higher percent (maybe people who didn’t also apply to Stanford), but there are lots of cross-admits as well.
You are correct. I frequent SDN, and Harvard and some of the other top 5 schools are known to really like applicants with a great deal of quantitative science skill. Many of those who are accepted, like you say, have taken high level math, statistics, physics, or chemistry.
This is unique, and not very relevant to the average medical school applicant. All I meant it to show was that if one semester of calc+stats is able to fill the requirement at a school which heavily values quantitative skill, it should be more than enough for most medical schools. I suppose that I shouldn’t have used the word “benchmark” which implies it should be the goal for everyone; when in reality it is more of a “more than enough” mark.
@fdgjfg great info, thanks. Please fill me in on summer courses because she’s getting conflicting info. So we live here in Nashville --how many summer courses will transfer and from which schools? Is it true no community colleges? Her advisor is telling her that, but I know for a fact that a local cc has a transfer to Vandy engineering program, so why no other classes? Otherwise I suppose MTSU would be the least expensive.
@swimmom2020 The schools decide individually where they will accept credit from. I know the school of engineering accepts liberal art class credit from basically anywhere. I’m pretty sure A&S is a good bit more restrictive as far as transfer credit goes. Not sure about the other schools.
You really have to check with the school your daughter is enrolled in to get the true policy. I think the registrar generally has or sets the policy, but I’m not certain.
Check the requirements at med schools you are interested in attending. Most will accept AP calc and allow college STATs as your math hours. This is a great plan as it allows you to avoid one of the five weed out classes and STATs is more applicable to the practice (and research) of medicine.
Research oriented med schools and MD-PhD programs will likely value upper level STEM classes and advanced quantitative backgrounds. If this is your goal you should consider these as long as these classes will not hurt your GPA. On the other hand many med schools value students interested in primary care in their under-served region of the state. They are clinical practice oriented schools not research oriented. These schools will likely be more interested in your EC’s and service record than advanced math and chem classes. So, it kind of depends on your career goals.
Up to two courses will transfer from other schools. The reason that you are getting conflicting information is that the courses must be approved by the relevant department prior to taking it, so things can vary. For the most part, they do not approve community college classes. The math department will definitely not, since they can be quite strict.
I suppose MTSU would be the cheapest, or perhaps TSU? You will really have to emphasize the cost element to the head of the math department, since he will try to push for just taking the class at Vanderbilt if you live in Nashville.
@swimmom2020 Both my girls took Organic Chem over the summer over past 2 years. Easily made A’s. Very good decision, and it helped them to NOT take 2 sciences (like Biochem and Physics) at the same time. It was $2000 for the summer. However, you can use HOPE scholarship $$ for it. Vanderbilt has a consortium agreement with MTSU. If you go this route, start the process in February for the following summer. we learned the hard way. You do have to get it approved in advance, make sure they register at MTSU as a TRANSIENT student, and then you have to get the registrars at both schools to sign off on paperwork. Ours was all going along fine, and then the FA person said my oldest didn’t get her paperwork in on time (even though she had the email from the FA person stating everything was done and it was all “fine”).
Tennessee has HOPE scholarship? Wow, I only thought Georgia had it.
Also, as for taking 2 at a time, unless you are not a science major, isn’t that unavoidable (not only unavoidable, but it is recommended that you do it at some point in time. Many schools would recommend the summer option not be abused and that students at least double up once or twice and show success)? I mean, usually I see physics and ochem paired because most people at my school take bio and chem together (There are starting to be some chem/physics freshman combos due to the new MCAT, so these folks will take one summer core and then come back and likely double with ochem or bchem and something else sophomore year). Biochem gets combined with whatever other science courses are needed for their major or are useful for the MCAT (like microbiology or what used to be human physiology and/or a neuroscience course). Sometimes biochemistry is taken with organic chemistry II, do other schools just have a different culture of pre-med? honestly thought students at my school were actually quite soft and squeamish even after accounting for what was needed for pre-med. Also, I’ve seen plenty of students on this forum report taking 2-3 STEMs at a time. Not necessarily pre-med cores, but some classes were actually harder than the cores, even accounting for grading.
Yeah, I’m not thinking in terms of lab sciences, I think I’m just thinking science courses in general. Often while lab sciences are tedious, they often offer grade support (especially when integrated labs) than more difficult non-science lectures may offer.
Well, schools won’t require bchem with lab simply because most or many schools (especially privates, even top ones), don’t offer it. Fortunately my alma mater is working on offering one next year but who will take it?Not sure because there are two biochemistry (biology and chemistry) courses and only chemistry dept. will offer the lab so then you get into the politics of deciding whether or not biology majors can and should take the chem version for and with its lab.
Looking at all of that and how slow some schools are to change despite the new MCAT. What is more awkward is that a biochemistry will essentially be offered to freshmen. The 2nd semester of gen chem is supposed to go away completely and be replaced by intro or intermediate versions of the core chem classes like pchem, bchem, ochem, and inorganic. I think it is a great idea but it is certainly awkward for pre-healths, especially pre-meds whose course selection is kind of supposed to fit the mold you describe above. They simply will not have a second semester of general chemistry unless the “inorganic” is ultimately watered down a lot to accommadate them and they just go there (following the script they will no doubt assume that only courses explicitly named “general” or “inorganic” is allowed to fulfill those requirements). And I get a feeling that most med. schools may not allow for them to just take bchem w/lab instead and then count it as an inorganic which kind of a shame when you think about it. Things are about to get really “interesting” at the school if that chemistry curriculum is approved. It will be great for future scientists and engineers but present hurdles to to those more or less encouraged to have a chunk of their course load be from an academic cookbook of sorts dictated by the professional school of interest. Kind of disappointing because their requirements are often used as an excuse for schools and faculty members to avoid educational/curricular innovation in the life sciences. It makes for a very easy scapegoat I must say.
Also, as an aside…note that Harvard, as mentioned before, is actually among the more flexible schools. It expects a more rigorous schedule than normal, but is more flexible in how you achieve the “core”. For example, currently its math “requirement” can be fullfilled by a calculus based physics series as explained on their website. In that sense, I think they are kind of helping the problem while also bending the rules to accommodate its own students because they are among the very few privates,especially among top privates, that dramatically changed its undergraduate life and physical science curriculum over the past decade. Some of their pre-med heavy classes and the way they are done would not be recognized as the traditional general chemistry/inorganic by most schools. In lieu of biochemistry, I am sure they are pulling something slick by ultimately claiming that their life sciences ochem 2 sequence should stand in for it (which by technicality could be true though it is more of a bio-organic course than the standard and boring metabolic/memorization oriented biochemistry 1 courses at most schools).
Yes… as science majors, and with the pre-med requirement, they did each take 2 sciences at a time, I think their sophomore years? and they were miserable. A summer class helps you have more of a choice : ) When GPA is a factor, the amount of studying required for the lab sciences helps spread it out. If you take one over the summer it gives more flexibility. For example, my oldest was able to do more research, and was published in an incredible study and medical journal by the time she graduated. It’s not right for everyone, but for those who want to take the pressure off a little it’s a great option.
Really? I still don’t see how that would work for a science major schedule wise. I’ve seen science majors who were pre-med (and definitely non) take summer classes and then still have to take 2-3 STEM classes at a time, though not necessarily lab. At the same time, maybe science major requirements were/are quite stringent at my school, even for the biology major. They first have very specific requirements and then they they do things like “we won’t take AP credit for general biology lab or calculus 2” and they recently threw in a mandatory statistics course for all of them. Chemistry…just ouch. Essentially makes doubling or tripling up in lab sciences about 2 times unavoidable and that is just counting the chemistry courses and not other pre-med requirements.
Being pre-med in a difficult major that requires several of its own lab sciences like physics or chem sucks even more than being pre-med…at all.
This is just an update from Daisy. I got As and A-s on all the rest of the tests so far. But I feel somewhat disappointed after hearing some classmates scoring way better than me. I feel like my achievements are never enough. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
@Daisy246 Congratulations! Getting As and A-s is amazing for these weed-out courses. You’re doing so well, and clearly all your hard work is paying off. It may seem that your efforts are never ‘enough’, especially in a school like Vandy, but trust me when I say this: many of your classmates might be feeling the same way when they look at your recent scores. I also feel insecure sometimes, despite being a CV scholar and having coveted leadership positions. I guess that’s an occupational hazard of studying in a top 15 school. However, as Roosevelt said, comparison is the thief of joy. Don’t get too worried when you see some classmates scoring slightly better. No one aces EVERY class, or we’d have a flood of summa cum laude students! You still have 7 more semesters to pull up your GPA, and you’re already doing so.
You’ve clearly come a long way. The first semester is always the hardest because you’re still adjusting to the academics and social life, but you seem to be on the right track, so I really don’t think I have any other advice for you but to keep up the good work, and take the competition in your stride. Good luck, and enjoy the last few days of these holidays!
Excellent job and recognize that an A-/A is an A-/A…worry about your own success and the fact that your grade has improved dramatically. Your goal is to achieve for yourself and those you want to help in the future, not beat the person that scores 3-5 points higher on an exam…that is so insignificant in the end. In addition, sometimes it helps to be inspired by your peers. That is why you go to schools like this. If you feel so uncomfortable being surrounded by talent, you simply do not go to any top private or public school as the idea is that people at these places should enjoy being driven by their peers. The only time anguish is somewhat justified is if you are performing way below par and thus feel out of place. That clearly isn’t the case. If teachers at these level schools are doing what they are supposed to, then all students should be challenged at a higher level than if they had gone to schools outside of the elite (unless they of course got into an honors college). You never know the background of your peers, so it is simply best not to think in such competitive terms, especially in STEM courses which actively try to challenge even the best of students and Vandy has basically the best students ACT/SAT wise so it is natural that raw scores on things like chemistry exams will be almost as compressed as the score range. You can’t always expect to earn higher grades than folks as they are essentially the same level of talent in terms of test taking. And let us not talk about if you run into an instructor that gives exams that are actually difficult and yield 60 something averages.
@Sophie1295: Come on, Vandy is no different from how it was last year or even 3-5 years ago. The level of intensity in the classroom(especially that gen. chem class) is exactly the same, no need to rub in the top 15 thing (it is not some magical rank that completely changes the experience and level of academics, just like JHU is not suddenly different for rising to the top 10. WashU has the same rank and its pre-med courses are, for the most part, far more difficult than not only Vandy but likely several schools ranked above it). That doesn’t matter. If the class is challenging, then some students, no matter their standard incoming credentials (SAT/ACT and GPA), will struggle vs. their own or even the schools standards of achievement. At these schools, whether top 5,10,15,20,25,30, whatever, someone will always be more prepared (like a 1400 student can easily beat a 1500+ student if the 1400 student has AP/IB credit or experience and the 1500+ student does not. Let us not talk about the false confidence that can come from being in such a position. Hell, some courses at these places often get the best of AP credit students) or just happen to perform better. Not even a merit scholarship ensures perfect performance in every instance.
You read way too much into my comment. I was just referring to the caliber of students that Vandy and similar universities attract. Not rubbing anything in.
@AnnieBot : Yes, many professors are very facetious (and kind of jaded…though it isn’t like highered is that much worse since they went through it). If they bring it up, it usually is their way of saying something like I did…“it doesn’t mean much”(faculty at some elites are flat out willing to write in publications that despite a school’s rise, they haven’t noticed any increase in classroom performance and I remember one faculty member at Duke and several at places like Dartmouth complaining the opposite is going on in many cases. Many science instructors, for example just continue to teach the same way even as the student body changes for example and would report that they get similar means). Although, most professors at these sorts of schools would admit to seeing differences in the classroom that result from more robust merit scholarship programs. So when a school at the level of an elite school gets more students like Sophie (as in can give a CV scholarship or its equivalent), the change is noticeable (Often even if the stats are similar to the rest of the student body, merit scholars often are the ones that had different attitudes toward learning than many others which is why the person was selected). Usually the “on paper” smarts only translate to the classroom to a solid but limited extent. Ideally, you do see it translate to endeavors outside of the classroom though.
I say finish what you started this semester/quarter. In deciding whether or not to transfer, keep in mind that graduate schools care about GPA more than college attended. A student applying to grad school with a 4.0 from the Ohio State is a better candidate at Carnegie Mellon or Washington University than someone who graduated with a 3.7 from a private school such as Vandy where the classes were (much) more difficult.