<p>I'm sure that this has been asked many times on CC before. Not too long ago I went into my GC's office and sat for three hours while she wrote my recommendations/filled out school report/etc., and I noticed that she marked "very demanding" instead of "most demanding." While I'm sure it doesn't matter for most schools, I'm afraid that it could be my Achilles' heel for more selective schools (my top choice is Northwestern). Although I've taken/am taking 10/14 APs that my school offers and have taken 9/10 Honors courses that my school offers she said that she "couldn't check 'most demanding' because I am not taking the highest level of calculus" (We have AP Honors Calculus AB and AP Calculus AB). I said that it wasn't fair because I took the "regular" calculus class to take orchestra, but she wouldn't buy it. Is there anything that I can do to remedy the situation? Or will colleges even care since my GPA and class rank are already at a fairly high level (4.411/5.00, 12/576)?</p>
<p>I don’t think that knocks you out of the running. It’s still a reach either way.</p>
<p>Usually admission officers at each college are very aware of your high school stats (meaning how rigorous the school is, how many AP and honors are offered and even sometimes how tough a GC is and how infrequently she doles out the “most demanding” status). Your school has a code that is sent with every application which spells most of this out. So if you are ranked 12th in a class of 576, assuming you go to a fairly decent high school that will speak volumes along with your impressive amount of top courses taken. I wouldn’t worry about it.</p>
<p>I guess she wants to see the highest level in the core classes to define ‘most demanding’. That’s a little tough to do that based on one class, and there would seem to be hardly any difference between AP Honors Calculus AB and AP Calculus AB. If you wanted, you could make a short note in additional information that you sacrificed a higher level of calc because you were committed to orchestra. I don’t think it will make a difference, they will see your transcript. AP calc will likely be counted the same, whether you also call it honors, which is weird anyway.</p>
<p>What is the difference between “AP Honors Calculus AB” and “AP Calculus AB”?</p>
<p>If they want to offer a more advanced or rigorous course than AP Calculus AB, they should offer AP Calculus BC.</p>
<p>You have just encountered the bane of a HS student’s existence - band/orchestra. Those two courses have knocked more students out of high level classes than any other two classes known to man.</p>
<p>I don’t think this will knock you out of the running for anything, as the rest of your numbers look good and schools understand that conflicts happen. At least you got calculus in, in any form. There’s an interesting set of notes from William & Mary Admissions over on their thread:
<a href=“W”>quote</a>e generally recommend 3-5 APs to include calc, the fourth level of a foreign language and physics.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Further down they explain:
<a href=“W”>quote</a>e do recommend students take calc. It’s not required for admission but it is one of the classes we consider a benchmark of a more challenging curriculum. Having calc will make your transcript more challenging but not having calc will not automatically make you a waitlist or deny instead of an admit. Will not having calc makes you less competitive than those who take calc? Yes but only in terms of the evaluation of your math progression. Your transcript with 5 APs may be stronger than that of a student with 3 APs which include calc.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And then:
</p>
<p>This is as honest and upfront an explanation I have seen from any admissions office at a top level school about what they’re looking for regarding APs. W&M is a pretty top level school. </p>
<p>To extend the point further, a more elite LAC explained to me that they really like to see 6 APs if a school offers it and it’s allowed. (Three each junior and senior year seems reasonable to demonstrate you can do college level work at high level institutions.) They like to see some level of all three basic sciences. APs are probably more impressive that regular level. I would imagine they also want to see calculus, and the fourth level of a foreign language. Again, APs would be better.</p>
<p>To sum it up, here is the best definition of “most demanding” I have been able to derive that would apply for most high schools and also apply to most elite institutions. You need to hit each of the points. Anything beyond this is great, but probably not required to be seriously considered, except for the HYPSM crowd:</p>
<ol>
<li>At least six APs total.</li>
<li>Mix it up between humanities and math/science.</li>
<li>One of your APs needs to be AP Calc or AP Physics.</li>
<li>Take calculus is some form. Pre-calc if you can’t manage that, though top schools expect calc.</li>
<li>Make sure you take each of the basic sciences at least once, as many as you can at AP level.</li>
<li>AP Lang or AP Lit is a must.</li>
<li>AP Gov or APUSH is also a must.</li>
<li>Taking the AP class and doing well is more important than doing well on the AP test. Just taking the AP test is not as impressive as taking the AP class.</li>
<li>Avoid Cs. A few Bs are acceptable, but the more As the better.</li>
<li>Even if you can’t fit four years of a foreign language in, get to the fourth level or above in a single foreign language.</li>
</ol>
<p>Learn it. Know it. Live it.</p>
<p>Your guidance counselor is mean. Your courses sound about as challenging as you can get.
But…AP Honors. Seriously?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>If that is actually true at places other than Caltech and Harvey Mudd, that makes the middle school math placement decision one which has future implications for college admissions. Students placed on the normal math track in the US will complete precalculus in 12th grade, which should leave them prepared to take calculus in college. But if high school calculus is seen as “required” for admission to a selective college, that forces parents to think about college admissions when the student is in 7th grade or so, and creates incentive to push students ahead in math even if they would not normally be put in the advanced math track.</p>
<p>I do agree that if the student is on the advanced math track, taking calculus in high school is a good idea. (But it looks like the OP’s high school is very odd – AB and “honors AB”?)</p>
<p>I agree that it is not “normal” for US students to take calculus in high school, but I do think it’s pretty normal for almost anyone going to an elite (Top 50 National or LAC) to take Algebra I in 8th grade. That gets you to calculus in 12th. You don’t even need to be thinking about college admissions, the schools just kind of do that automatically if you have the aptitude.</p>
<p>UCB, it always surprises me to read comments like yours re: math tracking. So many places have such different academic expectations of their college bound students. I’m not sure where you are, but I hear similar comments from CCers in NY, so I know there are a lot of kids attempting to track to top schools who aren’t taking Calc in HS. In our state, it is very common to get through AP Calc AB, BC and IB Math in high school. I assume that most IB schools have such a track. My non-IB track son who struggles in math is well behind his peers in math in 11th grade and is in Honors Pre-Calc. DS1 was great at math but hated it, yet this was his track: 7th grade–H. Alg. 1; 8th–H. Geom.; (skipped Alg. II to catch up with IB peers) 9th–H. Pre-Calc; 10th–AP Calc AB; 11th AP Calc BC; 12th–IB Further Math. </p>
<p>Around here, there aren’t many college-bound students taking Pre-Calc senior year, and I’m not talking about just those applying to Top 50 schools. I’m talking those who are applying to local colleges. I don’t even know of college bound seniors taking Calc AB senior year. Most of our middle schools do start tracking college-bound kids for, at least, Algebra 1 in 7th grade. That may be the result of the proliferation of IB schools in the US. But even my “non-math kid” took Alg. 1 in 7th grade and will take Calc AB as a senior. And he is a year or two behind ALL of his friends in math. It’s interesting to think about how the Admissions officers juggle the regional differences in academic expectations.</p>
<p>When I was in middle/high school, 90% or more of the students started algebra 1 (or lower) in 9th grade (precalculus in 12th grade). The other less than 10% started algebra 1 in 8th grade (precalculus in 11th grade). Once every few years, a really good student in math would show up and be placed in algebra 1 in 7th grade (precalculus in 10th grade).</p>
<p>However, the high school did not have a two or three year calculus sequence (“AP Calc AB, BC and IB Math”). Students who completed precalculus in before 12th grade took calculus BC the next year. I.e. no racing ahead just to get on a “calculus treadmill”.</p>
<p>I understand that it may not make that much of a difference, but when you’re competing against tens of thousands of other applicants every little thing matters which is why I worry.</p>
<p>I don’t understand my school. They have the Honors track and then the Regular track. With the Honors track you take Honors Algebra I in 8th grade and then continue on up with the Honors courses until you reach the AP Honors class. With the Regular you take Algebra I freshman year and double up somewhere along the line (or you drop out of Honors at some point in hs). I guess it’s just to keep the kids who have taken AP/Honors classes together for 7 years together? It really makes no sense to me. The “regular AP class” uses the same book/does the same homework/takes the same tests as the “honors AP class,” the only difference I was told by my Honors Pre-Calculus teacher was that second semester they shorten the lessons to fit in all the material so by the time the AP test comes around the regular class is 2-3 weeks behind the honors in terms of material covered.</p>
<p>A student taking AP Calculus BC is underheard of at my school. Each year only 3-4 people take it as an independent study or at a local college. But to do so most have to petition to the principal and the school board that their child is capable of doing the work/understands the what they’re getting themselves into/yada yada yada. Indiana is weird.</p>
<p>Austere, I’d be angry and confused, as well. As others have stated, the “most rigorous” designation IS what schools want to see checked off. However, schools also read the supplemental information you provide on the Common App. If you briefly explain the situation with the course conflict with Orchestra and “Honors AP Calc” (honestly, I’ve never even heard of “Honors” AP Calc), you will be fine. I was surprised at how many admissions officers contacted DS to clarify questions they had about his coursework (he had some independent studies, AP tests he didn’t take classes for, etc.) They DID read the supplemental information we provided, then contacted him to ask about curriculum details. So, make sure you explain the course conflict and point out that you have excelled in math previously, if you have, and that the Honors section would have been your ideal placement, were it not for the conflict. It will all work out. :)</p>
<p>UCB, your experience mirrored mine, except that I think only the very top math students took Pre-Calc when I was in school. We only needed two years of math, so I struggled through Algebra 1 and Geometry, then called it good. 
Squeaked in under the Core Curriculum in college, so didn’t have to take any math in college. Gotta say, never once in my years as a small business owner, years in the financial services industry, etc. have I thought, “Geez, I wish I’d taken more math”. </p>
<p>I’m not sure what is driving the rush through math, either. Unless you’re going into STEM, it seems a complete waste to me. But, there is most definitely a change of course in math education. We have been looking at moving from the West to the South or East, and the differences between where DS2 is as a junior in high school here and where he would be as a senior in most of the schools we have looked at is astounding. Here, he’s very middle-range in terms of curriculum (he will have only taken Pre-Calc and four APs by end of junior year here–very mediocre by local standards, where most of his friends will have completed AP Calc BC, 3-5 APs and two IBs). At the schools we’ve looked at in other areas, he is on track for the highest academic awards available and has few class options available for senior year because he’s so far ahead of where the seniors at his new school would be. Fascinating how different public schools in different areas of the country can be.</p>