Viola help

College Majors Music Major
1

<p>I have a 9th grade daughter who has started to consider studying music in college. I've been doing research for the past couple of months since I know very little about music and have found this forum to be filled with knowledgeable, thoughtful, and well-mannered folks. Now I have a dilemma I hope some of you can help me think through.</p>

<p>My DD has been playing viola for 5 years. She currently plays a 15.5" Eastman (~$1,200). It's been a very nice instrument for her for the past two years, but I do agree with her teacher that DD has reached the point where this instrument is starting to hold her back a little. It means we are probably looking at instruments in the $5,000 range - something I never, ever would have considered to be in the realm of reason, but here we are as skills develop!</p>

<p>DDs teacher is assuming DD will be upgrading not only quality, but also size to a 16". I've also assumed that she would ultimately play a 16" but now I'm feeling a little uneasy. My daughter is on the tall size, but slender. She doesn't have broad shoulders. I don't want to compromise my daughter's physical health in any way, but I also don't want to keep buying violas. Her teacher thinks if we upgrade (but again, he's assuming a 16") it will be one she can take with her into college. He's having her look at a Sean Peak if that matters/helps, and they also come in 15.5. Does anyone have any thoughts about upgrading her instrument, but staying with the 15.5 size? </p>

<p>I would love to make this a final purchase viola since this an expensive and stressful project. Is it unlikely that a 15.5 will be sufficient in the long run? Thanks for your input. I greatly value the effort people make here, it's a nice community.</p>

2

<p>I don’t know specifically about violas since my children both play the cello, but maybe some of what I have experienced will translate. My daughter upgraded from a 3/4 to a full size cello 2 years ago when she was in 9th grade at the advice of her teacher at the time. She has a new teacher now who thinks she might do better with a 7/8 size because she is having trouble with some of the reaches in her left hand. The shop where we got her cello gives 100% credit for any instrument that was originally purchased in their shop if we trade for a new instrument, so we may be able to make the switch if they can find the right instrument for her. Do you have a reputable shop near you that has similar terms so you may be able to go with the smaller instrument now and trade to the larger instrument later if she needs it? The proprietor of a really good shop may also be able to help with evaluating her size. Do you have a college music school near you where you might be able to talk to a viola professor about these issues? or a professional orchestra? I know of a professional cellist in our area who completed undergrad and doctoral degrees in music at prestigious programs with a 7/8 size cello that she still plays so it may be more about the quality of the instrument than the size. Hope this helps!</p>

3

<p>Did you know a lot of good string houses let you trade in for full value if you bought it there towards a bigger/better instrument. I hate to break the news to you but this is likely not the “final” instrument purchase if you child is headed into music. Hopefully good enough to a least begin college. College teacher may have another idea. And then there is the bow which can cost a lot of money. Do be sure you have instrument insured. Good luck.</p>

4

<p>cellomom2: Thank you for sharing your daughter’s experience. We do have a very nice shop nearby, and we have already taken advantage of their favorable exchange terms over the years. I don’t know what people do who aren’t so fortunate. What you wrote about the professional cellist is exactly the sort of thing I was hoping to hear, that it is <em>possible</em> to advance to a higher with a smaller instrument. </p>

<p>cellocompmom: Thank you, too, for your advice. I realized after I posted that it probably sounds naive to have used the word “final.” What I meant was an instrument that could take her through undergrad, and then based on her goals at that point we could reassess. Nothing is ever final in music, I’ve learned that much! DDs teacher purchased a viola in high school that brought him through grad school, so we’re aiming for that situation even if changes occur over time. </p>

<p>It helps to have people to discuss things with, so thank you both. My daughter has a terrific teacher and we have a wonderful string shop. I definitely rely on their advice, but it’s a big world out there and I appreciate getting additional feedback as we make a decision.</p>

5

<p>My other piece of advice (parent to a cellist and a violinist and a musician myself) is to not try instruments too far out of your price range. It has happened to us more than once that we ended up with more instrument than we had originally planned because we “tried it just for fun” and then we could not forget the sound. Having said that the whole pricing of string instruments is quite interesting. The most expensive once does not necessarily mean the one with the best sound. I would enjoy the process. As my kids grew more mature as musicians we watched them making thoughtful intelligent choices and listening closer when trying instruments. And then there is the matching bow to the instrument event which always overwhelmed me. Certain bows sound better with certain intruments. When my violin playing son purchased his full size violin his teacher did want want him to get the one with biggest sound that was easiest to play because he wanted him to learn to work for it a bit. Now this kid has another teacher, is a freshman in high school land is likely conservatory bound so I am wondering if we are going to be violin shopping again in next few years. One more thought-cello playing son is in college for music now. We asked his teacher going into h.s. senior year if we should look at better instrument/bow and teacher told us to wait until he got to college because college teacher for sure would want to be a part of that process and that was not a time to make any equipment changes but son had a fine at least get you through college instrument at that point anyway. And we know a professional cellist who plays on smaller size who plays a slight smaller cello because she is on smaller size. Good luck.</p>

6

<p>Ah, welcome to the wonderful world of being the parent of a string student. 5 grand on a string instrument is in the low end of things, on a wind instrument that generally is a very, very good instrument (at least it is on a clarinet. </p>

<p>One of the things with string instruments, as the student progresses in their playing and repertoire, even good instruments can ‘run out of gas’, it has happened several times with my S over the past X years. As a freshman, I would give my opinion it is likely that whatever instrument you get now, will probably need to be replaced by the time the kid goes to college (if in fact they do, for music I mean). It is likely it won’t be a size issue (i.e you D growing that much) but rather technique and level of playing outstripping the instrument. </p>

<p>Here is what I think I have learned with my son (some of which I am very sure of):</p>

<p>-Don’t buy by price! In fact, have the shop give you a range of instruments and prices up to the level you think you can afford, and have your D play them against each other and use her current instrument as the reference. I have seen far too many people come into shops and say “my teacher told me to come in, and that I should be looking at an X thousand instrument”, which besides telling me the teacher either is an idiot or has some sort of kickback scheme with the store, is total crap. </p>

<p>-Test out the instruments, and find the ones you D thinks feels best to her. Don’t buy the instruments she likes simply based on trying it in the store, a good music store will allow you to ‘test drive’ the instrument at home., to get several days on it (if they don’t, try another store, seriously). Check the instruments you like out of the store, and play them for the teacher in a lesson, and see what they think, and also play them for several days practicing and such, and see which talks to them. </p>

<p>-Once you come to a decision, then see if you can get credit on the current instrument.</p>

<p>The thing that is important isn’t price or the maker, it is the sound, pure and simple, and the two are not necessarily related. A great maker can make crappy instruments, and unknown apprentice could have made a gem. You very well could find a gem at 4,000 or 3,000, you never know, and if you buy by price, you could get a 10 grand clunker (my S’s last violin played better then the instruments costing 4 times as much in the same store, it was a hidden gem).</p>

<p>She could get lucky, and find that perfect instrument now that lasts at this point, but to be honest, I think that is unlilkely, which is why buying by price doesn’t make sense. Even if you could put out 10 grand, let’s say, she might find an instrument she loves, and then down the line is playing difficult pieces and find it doesn’t work any more, given her technique has changed and other factors.</p>

<p>Again, ask the music store to give you instruments in a range of prices up to your limiit but ask them not to tell you or you D the price, test them, and see what washes out. Having the ability to trade in your old instrument means you will not have to shell out totally for a new instrument, it means you in effect are paying for the upgrade in sound, not the whole thing, and having 100% of the original purchase price means you are getting hit incrementally, not all at once, over a period of years.</p>

7

<p>Have D who plays viola also; bought her present instrument in 8th grade I think, and went with a 16” – thinking she would grow into it as she measured between 15.5 and 16”. It’s a very nice instrument (I’m told – as I am no expert!), looked at more expensive ones at the time, but D liked the sound of it best. Bow made a huge difference, went with more expensive bow (and you know you can pay just as much for bow as viola itself!). Were able to take it home from strings shop on 2-3 week tryout to see how she and strings teacher liked it. However, she never did grow much more after 9th grade and on hindsight, says would have preferred a 15.5”. With violas, it is much easier to play a slightly smaller viola than measured for, than to play slightly larger one (especially for females). Also found an independent luthier who had her play for him, then built custom bridge, which also made big difference, and who really likes the sound of her viola. He also recently rehaired her bow, and I now know more about horsehair than I probably ever wanted to! He says expensive does not always mean better. So if you can find a good luthier to fine tune the little things, that can make a big difference. Girls tend to mature growth wise earlier than boys, so if she is finding a 15.5 more comfortable right now in 9th grade, I would stick with 15.5”. You can get serious shoulder/arm pain if viola is too big. Never heard of Sean Peak violas, but there are a lot of new viola makers out there now. In the end though, it will be whatever instrument ‘speaks’ best to your D. Just don’t forget the insurance! (BTW, my D will possibly do minor in music college, but if not will still audition for orchestra as loves playing, and the joy of music is the most important thing I think. Also, funnily enough, picked up the mandolin very easily due to pizzicato on viola, and has now started playing it too!).</p>

8

<p>Cairde: My daughter is in a similar situation. She has played viola since 4th grade and is a good viola player not a virtuoso. I think she would make a fine addition to a viola section but she is unlikely to be first chair viola. She has no intention to major or even minor in music, however, it is very important to her to be able to continue playing in orchestras and to continue taking lessons. She has been playing on a 15.5 viola for the past few years and has reached her peak height at 5’3". Her teacher is indicating her viola (an Eastman 100) is bright sounding. We have purchased a new bow (carbon fiber) and I like the idea of the custom bridge and perhaps even different strings. How much did the custom bridge run? I have looked at new violas. One I’m curious about is a “Tertis” style that is wider at the front and narrower at the back. Supposedly it makes it easier for smaller players to play and provides a more cello like sound. Has anyone played one?</p>

9

<p>More great thoughts, thanks! I do understand about having a price limit but being willing to look at any instruments up to that price. We did that the first time around with her current viola. Our limit was $1,500 for example, but the one my daughter and teacher thought sounded best for her type of playing turned out to be less than our top price. I’d be pleased as punch if that happens again, but we are willing to look up to 5k. And yes, then there’s the whole bow alchemy. A world unto itself. </p>

<p>Personally I’m going to use pricing as a reference point because I often found in my searching of old threads that people wouldn’t use actual numbers and that makes it harder to learn about the process in a way. So if this is coming across as gauche, I apologize, but in the interest of anyone else searching in the future I figure I’ll add in all I know as I go along. </p>

<p>This issue has presented itself because DDs teacher found a viola (5k) that he thinks sounds great/much better than it’s competition, could take her into college, etc. Yesterday he loaned it to her to try and obviously compared to her current viola is sounds much fuller and stronger. We’ve decided that she’s not going to play it anymore, though, and we’ll return it to him today. Cellocompmom has nailed it exactly; if she tries it “just for fun” and then we decide that perhaps staying at a 15.5 will be better, it will be much, much more difficult to find contentment in sound at the smaller size!</p>

<p>I also appreciate our independent string shop too much to purchase outside of their offerings at this point, since it feels like it would sort of be on a whim. As we continue to do research and try instruments out if we somehow find a viola that would suit DD better then we will consider that of course, but we have received so much value from the shop over the years (my son also plays fiddle) that I want to work with them. They know us and our daughter’s playing so they are a resource we want to rely on. In fact, I’ve put in a voicemail to the violist at the shop. I can talk to her about this sizing issue a little easier than the teacher here at the beginning since she is generally the same size as my DD.</p>

<p>“Everyone” thinks my daughter COULD (and I think that sort of unconsciously translates into should) play a 16". However, I’m starting to think about it a little differently as I read about shoulder problems, back problems on this very forum. I want to be as sure as possible that my daughter’s frame will be successful with the larger size. As you can probably tell I’m leaning toward staying at her current size and just upgrading the instrument, but we’ll see. </p>

<p>I guess the mental hurdle I have to get over right now is the very likely prospect that we won’t be “done” for the next 6-7 years with this go-around. This has all been valuable advice you have given. Very helpful to hear about the high school senior whose teacher recommended he wait until college so that teacher could have input. Can’t keep jumping around on instruments wily-nily, need to know what the goals are.</p>

10

<p>Hello goodbooks. I sent you a private message.</p>

11

<p>Thank you, othermusicdad. I was able to read it, but I cannot respond until I have 15 posts to my credit :slight_smile: I appreciate your help, and I think I have heard of that style. I will look into that. My daughter is possibly going to a music camp this summer, and the viola teacher has a unique viola that sounds similar to what you described. </p>

<p>It may be worth waiting to talk to that viola teacher as well before we make any final decisions. Even if DD doesn’t attend the camp for the summer we will probably attend a concert and I could arrange to talk to the viola teacher in person. DD attended the shorter program last summer so knows the teacher, I’m sure he’d be happy to help. A very big Thank You!</p>

12

<p>I am no expert but I have been through this process with my 16 yo violist son a couple of times. I think there is more to viola size than just it’s length. A fine viola that is 16" can be lighter weight than a “not as fine” 15.5" viola. In fact, every time my son has upgraded his viola, his new longer bodied viola has been lighter than his older (and shorter) one. </p>

<p>Also, the string length can vary widely on violas. That is really what will affect playability the most. Violas are not standard, so three different 16" violas could all have different string lengths. </p>

<p>Upgrading can be so fun and exciting- but spendy! My son asked just this week if we could “just look” next time we are in the city!</p>

13

<p>Another parent of violists here. Both my girls are petite - really, really petite - the one who plays as an amateur is happy with her 15 inch and the one who is a music major recently downsized from her teacher’s 15 7/8 (on loan) to a 15 1/4 and has discovered that even that much of a smaller instrument has helped her intonation and freed up her vibrato. We’re also hoping it will contribute to fewer playing related injuries.</p>

<p>What she discovered in her search is that in addition to the “length” (15, 16 etc), one also needs to consider what I call “width” and “depth” - how wide are the bouts, how “fat” is the instrument? (I’m pretty sure those aren’t the technical terms!)</p>

<p>$5000 can get you a decent instrument that can take you through undergrad, but don’t forget that you will also need to upgrade her bow in order to get the full benefit of the new viola. I have heard a loose rule-of-thumb that the bow should cost one-quarter of the instrument’s value, although this could be argued (and probably will be, if I know some of the members of this forum!) ;)</p>

<p>As others have mentioned, if you purchase from a reputable shop, they may well have a trade-in policy so that when you need to upgrade in the future, they will give you (almost) full value for this instrument towards the next one.</p>

14

<p>I received a nice PM that I am unable to respond to right now (still not enough postings). At this point, I think we’re too early in the process but thank you, it sounds wonderful.</p>

<p>In just this one day I have learned so much, and I hope this thread has been helpful to others. I feel a bit like Alice in Wonderland the more I learn about violas, especially after MWstringmom and stradmom’s back-to-back postings. So much to sift through as we start to try out new violas. Makes me want to clutch at the security of that instrument I just returned to the teacher! </p>

<p>Actually, I think this is going to be a fun process. We have time on our side, and it’s rather zany to have so many different things to get to learn about. Could we try a longer instrument with shorter strings that’s lightweight with a fat bottom, please? And then, can we turn it all around by half?</p>

<p>We have good people in person to work with between the teacher, string shop, and a summer music camp teacher. This forum is a safe place to come to ask questions without feeling like a total idiot. My daughter, husband, and I have all appreciated how many people have offered information or things to consider and just general support. Thank you for taking the time.</p>

<p>Thank you, stradmom, for the rule-of-thumb. It’s good to have a general starting point and I’m even more clueless about bows than violas. It’s rather nice in a way, I’m so clueless I don’t even have any questions so that’s currently one less thing to worry about!</p>

<p>As I learn anything new or have questions that seems like it would be useful to the conversation I’ll add to the thread and hope others do, too. It’s nice to find a place for Viola Talk.</p>

15

<p>lvvcsf: Had bridge done a couple of years ago, had to go dig out the receipt, luthier also moved the soundposts (for better sound - who knew?), was less than $100 with a clean and polish. Viola is an advanced KCC if I am remembering correctly, been 5 years now, bow is H Luger, brazilwood. As I said, we did go with better bow, and luthier also rehaired that bow a couple of years ago. We also have local strings shop, actually the only strings shop in the area, where we purchased the viola (+ insurance) from, but private viola teacher (who is a violist herself) recommended this luthier for fine tuning. Both new bridge and soundpost move made a huge difference to D’s playing, she said. Teacher also prefers Dominant strings, but know Pirazzi strings are also popular. Haven’t tried the Tertis style ones.</p>

<p>goodbooks: It’s a big purchase, take your time. I didn’t know a single thing about violas, or much about classical music for that matter (still don’t), but Orchestra throughout HS has been a joy for her, as has local Symphony Youth Orchestra, so I am happy she is wanting to keep it up. Good Luck!</p>

16

<p>I would agree with Stradmom that $5000 can potentially get you through undergrad. We know of a recent grad from a top conservatory who played on a $3000 violin all 4 years. </p>

<p>Good books, when our son was in 9th grade we upgraded to his current 16" viola ( he is tall). We chose his instrument with the input and advice of his teacher with the thought that this might get him through college. </p>

<p>Now that college is getting closer I am thinking that this is the viola that will get him through auditions. After that - who knows? He will have a different teacher during college with a different perspective. At this point we can only guess how he will grow as a musician during these next few years. </p>

<p>Good luck in your search!</p>

17

<p>Come on, let’s face it - you and all of us in the same boat have to spend more than we thought was possible. I remember how shocked I was when someone referred to an 8k viola as a “student instrument”. Getting ready for college I have another problem. My kid has been loaned the teacher’s second instrument which was made in 1744 and is, though quite fussy, quite extraordinary. Now how are we going to give that back and buy one? Sigh. Realizing our dilemma profs from a couple of prospective conservatories have commented that their schools have loaners for such circumstances. </p>

<p>But if we are looking , we are looking at contemporary luthiers for an instrument and taking out an instrument loan. I’m in the AFM and they have a company that does such loans but I am feeling your pain. My kid is almost six feet and a sixteen is what we are going for.</p>

18

<p>Yep, it is like when you buy a house and then start realizing just how much that house is gonna cost you <em>lol</em>. String instruments are very, very difficult beasts, among which, no two are alike (there are strads out there that play like a 1976 ford pinto drives), and it takes a lot of effort to find an instrument. I took my S to an expo of modern luthiers, where he could try instruments out, and it generally was that the instruments he liked were expensive, in the 25-35k range. You can find young, unknown luthiers who make great instruments, of course, and they will be less because they don’t have the name, but it is a crapshoot finding it. It is a very different world then other instruments, that generally even the best instruments are a fraction of what their string counterparts will be. </p>

<p>It is why it is important to try a lot of instruments across price ranges and find the one that will do. It also depends on the student’s level, if you are talking a kid who already has been performing on the concert stage, playing at a very advanced level, they will need a much better instrument earlier then a kid who is less advanced. It all depends on how they progress, what they are playing and what they are doing with it. </p>

<p>One little nugget I never realized, if you decide to finance a string instrument through a bank, they can consider it a secured loan, because they know that with string instruments they don’t depreciate, so you can get a much better rate then a general purpose loan.</p>

19

<p>As the student progresses, thought needs to be put into the bow. which could be another several thousand dollars.</p>

20

<p>Yesterday I contacted anyone I could possibly think of who could help me process this sizing issue. I can’t let mere pride or shyness stand it my way, right? I even sent an email to a viola professor I’ve never met but had brief contact with who teaches at a university. She very kindly responded, and I thought the information she gave would be beneficial to share.</p>

<p>“More pertinent than length often is the width of the ires and the cut of the shoulders. If ribs are wide or shoulders square it can be very awkward & hard to negotiate up in higher positions. I suggest she look for something more slender, then should be fine even w/ 16 1/8, which gives more choice & often better C string sound, the soul of the viola.”</p>

<p>I was able to have a conversation with the violist at our area strings shop, too. She talked a little bit about how attitudes have changed. The attitude used to be that you had to be in the 16-17+" range or you had “no chance,” just grin and bear it. As we’ve seen on this thread, there has been a shift toward accomodating body sizes and plenty of people (including petite women) are very successful in the viola world. </p>

<p>The ‘technology’ has also made huge leaps which have made both violas and violins more comfortable and healthy to play; do not overlook or underestimate how important the proper shoulder rest and chin rest are to correct alignment. She also thinks my daughter is perfectly suited to a 16" btw.</p>

<p>This thread has gone far beyond my daughter’s needs (or her mother’s little crisis!) and all I can say is, wow, thank you for insights and experiences. If this helps shed a little light on the complex world of violas for someone else, now or in the future, even better.</p>