Yes that seems probably accurate.
Itâs the sequence for STEM students though, eight? Whereas students could take U/M courses, be prepared for UToronto, and not be taking the precalc/calc program.
This long report published today provides a more thorough look at the proposal and potential implementation: https://www.virginiamercury.com/2021/04/26/virginia-isnt-eliminating-accelerated-math-courses-but-its-one-of-many-states-rethinking-math-education/
1 Like
This really stood out to me.
The whole idea is that in ninth grade, 10th grade, all students are in the same science class, all the students are in the same English class, all students are in the same history class,â she said. âBut right now, many times, not all students are in the same math class.â As a result, math education is often siloed, giving students little sense of its relevance or connection to other fields.
According to Parker, thatâs been a challenge for colleges, which often find that students canât translate their math skills to other coursework (chemistry or physics, for example). So while acceleration isnât going anywhere in Virginia, it might not always be right for students.
âStudents can still get Calc I and can even get Calc II in 11th and 12th grade,â she said. âWhich is when those higher-level math conversations should be happening. When they take these classes in eighth, ninth, 10th, they donât have much to compare them to.â
-
Not all students ARE in the same science, English or history classes (well maybe they are in VA), for each of those grades.
-
Math does have relevance (and is usually a pre-requisite or a simultaneous class) to chemistry and physics. Iâm surprised that kids who took AP Chem and physics classes arenât able to utilize their math skills in those subjects in college. Iâd also suggest that the lack of cross utilization falls more on the teacher/curriculum choices. Is the physics class not calculus based for example?
-
Why should calc 1 and 2 discussions be confined to 11th and 12th grades?
-
Completely lost on the last sentence: when kids take pre calc in 9th grade they have nothing to compare the class to what?
Math is pretty straight forward in my opinion. We sent men to the moon when slide rules were still commonly used. How were they taught math? Why do educators feel the incessant need to tinker with math all the time? Maybe some kids donât need advanced math. Quite honestly some people never need more math than they learn in elementary/middle schoolâŠBut those that like math, are good or gifted in math or just like the challenge of it should not be lumped in with those that have little interest or talent in it because some consultant did a report. Thatâs how weâve ended up with garbage like âEveryday Mathâ, where my son was told not to bother memorizing multiplication tables, just draw some array of dots so he could really understand it and draw some ridiculous diamond matrix to do multiplication problems.
Donât recreate the wheel.
4 Likes
Another report published late today: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/virginia-advanced-math-classes-equity/2021/04/26/41f3dbd0-a6a3-11eb-bca5-048b2759a489_story.html
2 Likes
Virginia Department of Education staffers updated the website over the weekend, and the new version has 13 bullet points that explain what the initiative does and does not do. For example, it does not âeliminate . . . the study of calculusâ or âthe content from Algebra I, Geometry, and Algebra 2.â
Interesting this wasnât the first versionâŠstill a bunch of gobbledygook until the new system is in place.
Bottom line, if I were a VA parent: just show me the possible curriculum pathways available to my child.
1 Like
Most US high school physics courses are not calculus-based. These include:
- Regular high school physics.
- AP physics 1 and 2
- AP physics B (old course)
- IB physics SL
- IB physics HL
The only typical US high school physics courses that are calculus based are:
- AP physics C mechanics and E&M
But even they use less calculus than the college versions (for physics and engineering majors) usually do, since they have a calculus corequisite while the college versions typically require calculus 1 as a prerequisite.
1 Like
They probably see the result that many K-12 students struggle with math, and many college frosh do poorly on intake math placement tests, so they need to retake math that they theoretically completed in high school. Remember, despite chatter on these forums, it isnât all about the actual top 0.1% or 1% best-in-math students (who are pretty obvious, and whom most districts just put on the +2 or higher track), though some districts are probably contending with many pushy parents who claim that their kids are better in math than they actually are (i.e. trying to get their kids on the +2 or high track even when they should be on the +1 or +0 track).
If thatâs the case then how does the VA DOE propose to help kids utilize math better in science subjects or why are colleges allegedly complaining about it if the vast majority of all HS students taking physics fall into one of those class categories? And if youâre taking regular HS physics and perhaps didnât reach calc by 12th perhaps youâre not looking to study a math heavy major in college.
It just seems like all the tinkering is creating worse results instead of improvementâŠand itâs been going on for decades. Perhaps part of the issue is the teaching/school environment rather than the method/curriculum?
You can be a math major in college even if you didnât reach Calc in HS.
Absolutely, but what percentage of kids will pursue additional math courses in college if they didnât particularly like math or do well in math in high school? You might take them because youâre a pre-med and need to take them and you discover a love of math that bloomed late because your math teachers in HS werenât very good. Or you slog thru calc because itâs a med school requirement. And leave it in the dust while you pursue an anthropology major.
Everyone doesnât need to excel in math. There seems to be this odd prestige thing about being advanced in math. No one brags about their kids taking AP Lit or AP psych or AP EconâŠitâs all about the math level.
1 Like
Completing precalculus and regular physics is the minimum requirement at most US universities to do a major in math, physics, or engineering.
Course plans for those majors typically start with the following:
Semester 1: calculus 1 (prerequisite precalculus)
Semester 2: calculus 2, physics 1 (includes mechanics) (calculus-based, also has prerequisite high school physics)
Semester 3: calculus 3 (multivariable), physics 2 (includes E&M)
Obviously, students who had calculus in high school may start in a higher math course in semester 1, and may start the physics sequence in semester 1 with the higher math course. But not having had calculus in high school does not mean that those majors are closed off.
Perhaps a widespread erroneous belief that calculus in high school is the baseline college prep track (rather than being an advanced +1 track) is part of what is fueling the math acceleration race among many parents.
2 Likes
Virginia students donât all take the same English, Science, and History classes despite what was quoted in one of the above articles. My daughter attended HS in VA and the Program of studies for students studying for an advanced diploma (college bound) is linked below.
https://www.staffordschools.net/Page/31585
Pages 12-22 describe the many curriculum options available in one VA county. Both IB and AP curriculums are available in the county. Several other special academic curriculums are also available including the Governorâs school, which is considered the most advanced. Two or three students from this program per year are admitted to Ivy League schools from my daughterâs school. Other advanced curriculums are in the APPX program which has four options depending on a studentâs interest in STEM, arts and humanities, global studies, etc, There are also career and technical curriculums.
I believe none, even Governorâs school has math beyond AP Calc BC.
Many students like my daughter, just choose to design their own coursework. At her school, there were few restrictions on what course work was allowed, and with 8 classes per year, students could double up on math or science classes or other study areas. I think my daughter took 7 science classes. APES, honors and AP bio and chem, AP physics, and ecology. Five maths up to AP Calc AB. She took the minimum number of English and History classes though none were AP. One English course was DE, and gave her credit for both freshman English courses at VT. Sheâs now doing very well in their highly ranked Civil Engineering program despite not taking AP Calc BC.
3 Likes
So, basically, not only will VA students reach calculus by 12th grade but theyâll be offered one course further than that. The main difference seems to be that algebra1&2+geometry will be the default 8th-10th grade path.
âEvery day mathâ sounds nasty but thatâs not whatâs going on here.
Why tinker with the math curriculum? Because math is part of the knowledge all citizens need to have in order to understand the world, and the
world changes so math skills need to follow: in the 21st century understanding data modelling and statistics is more important than trigonometry for most students and it should absolutely be incorporated into the curriculum for all stusents through 10th grade -without depriving future Stem majors of trigonometry/precalculus. Itâs just like when calculators replaced slide rules and students sere taught to use them (it didnât replace learning basic tables but added complexity), when âprecalculusâ was invented as a class, or when computers changed the type of math we were able to do. Why, thereâs even an entire film devoted to the discovery one could learn calculus in HS, something which was only available at some high schools in the 70s-80s.
5 Likes
Everyone doesnât need to excel in math. There seems to be this odd prestige thing about being advanced in math. No one brags about their kids taking AP Lit or AP psych or AP EconâŠitâs all about the math level.
And all this âaccelerationâ in math is just more algebraic , procedural stuff. I see my kidâs Calc BC homework - and itâs a lot of grungy algebra ; not very different from 40 years ago when I took calculus. It still takes some skill and effort, but itâs not some genius level math though.
While our districts âovertracksâ for math, they do no tracking for English. Everyone in the same courses until 10th grade , where they get can go into the honors track. The expectation in 10th grade honors is very high. I had a private tutor for English for DS2 from 8th grade onwards, because I had heard about the difficult honors classes in English in high school. If the kids had been tracked even a year earlier, I think it would have helped then to adjust. So that was one of my concerns about the 11th grade being the point where they separate for the math curriculum.
2 Likes
Interesting that English tracking is so late in your district. My Dâs elementary tracked by reading groups even earlier in elementary school than math, and their was an advanced English curriculum in 6th grade middle school. Same for science.
There was more flexibility to move up in non math tracks but still not as much as there should have been.
Not sure this is the solution-- but I donât blame the folks in Virginia for at least admitting there needs to be some overhaul. (this solution is crazy, but at least people are talking about it).
Why overhaul math? Everyone needs math. Everyone. I have a friend who runs a retraining/upskilling program for adults whose jobs have been outsourced/eliminated/ made obsolete. Soft skills are a challenge (teaching someone you donât clobber your boss when she gives you performance feedback) but they can fix a lot of that with various simulations, role playing, etc.
The other challenge is math. You arenât getting hired as a pharm tech if you donât know what decimal points are and why they are the difference between helping someone and killing them.
Among college graduates, the deficits are even more pronounced. The career options for someone who is interested in a corporate career in HR and majored in psychology-- but never took a rigorous statistics class? Someone who majored in marketing but doesnât know what a regression is? Someone who majored in âInternational Businessâ but canât read a pie chart and took âMacro-liteâ instead of an actual, quant based econ course???
There are math-avoidant kids who think their problems are solved by taking the non-math version of a more rigorous major, but there are lots of careers where avoiding college level math doesnât help you.
So boo to flattening the curve on math in Virginia, but hurray for understanding that a fundamental knowledge of math is going to be required for many, many jobs in the next decades.
3 Likes
After further research, I feel a bit better after reading this on the vdoe website.
âLocal school divisions will still have plenty of flexibility to create courses aligned to the standards to meet the needs of all students; and provide opportunities for all students to advance through the curriculum based on their learning needs. School divisions will also be able to offer advanced sections and acceleration through the courses.â
Our high school has much bigger than problems than math. Our high school (pre-pandemic at least) has no soap, paper towels, or doors on the stalls in the boys bathrooms due to constant issues. When a knife fight broke out in the cafeteria next to my S, it wasnât even a blip on the schoolâs radar to let me know. My kid didnât even mention it until some time later. These things happen. Gangs are a big issue starting in elementary school. By middle school, theyâve firmly taken hold. By high school, teachers and admins just doing what they can to give enough a diploma so they donât lose even more funding. Many, many kids barely pass algebra I part 1 by graduation. Lumping all these kids with the calculus bound kids for 9-10th grade would be a disaster. Even though little to no learning took place, I could look the other way for PE, personal finance, and the lower levels of FL. I would have drawn the line for math. But, itâs nice to see that hopefully this will not be an issue.
âGiftedâ kids are first identified around 3rd grade, but they just do an enrichment class a couple of times a week. Middle school is where it pulls apart. In the 2000s, they started having the gifted kids take Algebra I in 7th grade as a way to pull kids out of the private school to boost their test scores. Starting in 8th grade at the private school meant you would be âbehindâ in math. They also sold it by completely segregating the group from the masses. They have their own wing, their own lunch, everything. Itâs a private school within a public school. And yes, it works. Our private schools struggle to keep kids for those grades. And it does appear that you do have to either be truly special or a kid of an important person to get in.
However, they also have an âadvancedâ track in middle school with 8th grade Algebra. These kids are in the same area, same lunch, etc. as everyone else, but have separate core classes. All that is needed to get into this track is for a parent, student, or teacher to sign the kid up. Once they reach high school, both groups are merged together into Advanced/AP/DE/etc with the middle school gifted just being ahead 1 year in math. The middle school advanced kid might not be able to be valedictorian, but my own kid went this route starting in 8th grade, took calculus as a senior, and wound up #3 at graduation.
2 Likes
Iâm glad it worked out for your daughter, but that sounds like a horrible, yet typical, set-up for the majority of the k-12 students in that system.
EDIT: I say this as someone who, while in elementary school, was chosen to be accelerated during the first year of such programs in my city many decades ago. I benefited from it, but it was a âtestâ program. I think the problem is the test was never improved adequately to improve the subpar education of most students, because itâs too easy to say the smart/worthy students get fast-tracked and the dumb/unworthy students get âregularâ tracked. itâs taken all these decades for people to admit the system is still broken and just as unfair. I applaud VADOE for making a real effort to improve the system.