<p>We visited the University of Chicago last week and Kenyon College this weekend. The visits caused us to see the contrast between a research university and a liberal arts college quite starkly. Both visits had unanticipated consequences. My daughter fully expected to love Chicago. She did like the campus and the academic opportunities, but she was put off by a perceived lack of community. She said she feels that she could find her niche there but that she would have to work to find kindred spirits. She was not expecting to like Kenyon because it is a rural college, but she really enjoyed her discussions with the professors, and she found the students extremely friendly and the campus and town utterly charming. She is still up in the air, but she did say that she feels strongly that she wants to go to a liberal arts school, chiefly because of the close relationships with professors and the sense of community.</p>
<p>Highlights the need to make visits!</p>
<p>Pattykk - Very interesting about your daughter's reactions. When you get a chance, share a full trip report for the two colleges. I would be particularly interested to hear more about your reactions to Kenyon.</p>
<p>Carolyn: Kenyon is a very pretty campus. It is located across the street from a cute village. Students and college personnel are everywhere in town. Some students even serve as volunteer firemen. The houses are picturesque. I had the feeling of being in New England. I enjoyed the rolling hills. Most of the buildings are collegiate Gothic and are very attractive. The dorms are roomy and clean, although many do not have air conditioning. There are a few funny-looking (chocolate shingles) 70's era apartment buildings for upperclassmen. I think the kids called them the pizza boxes, which is precisely what they looked like. The library is modern and a decent size. A large athletic facility is under construction. The science facilities are fairly new. The school has a nice environmental station located near a river and prairie. The art history and studio art facilities are decent. We were most surprised by the unpretentious, friendly students and the very tight sense of community. Students and faculty spoke highly of the school and seemed to have a lot of affection for one another. We met several alums among the staff and several faculty children who attended the college and returned later in life to teach or to work for the college. My daughter attended a class and met with two professors. She found the professors very warm and their expertise impressive. One had written several books about India. The other was "antagonistic" and challenging, but they had a fun exchange talking about everything from evil to punk music. Her impression was that the English department is pretty rigorous academically but that the other departments might not be as demanding. She felt the academic rigor might be a tad less than she is seeking, but she did feel that she could be happy at Kenyon. She has some reservations about being in such a remote location, but she liked the gentle, kind vibe. I didn't find the students easy to peg as far as preppy, crunchy granola, etc. They just seemed like mostly easy-going kids. Politically, I think the campus is mostly liberal, with some conservatives. There is a weird fraternity/sorority set-up. The frats have housing is sections of dorms with lounges in the basement. The sororities don't have set-apart housing or party facilities. The kids said there is alcohol at the parties, but they claim it is not out of hand. They also do community service. My impression is that the frat parties are something to do in a little burg. I think the fraternity membership is something like 10% of the student body; I imagine the admin would be happy to see that percentage dwindle. Athletics are Division III. The swim team is national champion or near the top. The career development folks have set up a network of 6,000 alums who will allow students to shadow them during spring and winter breaks. Alums are also very good about answering questions, mentoring, etc. The career development office also sets up internships in the summer. I visited one neighboring town about five minutes from campus. It has a large automotive plant and a mix of medium industries. Definitely red state, judging by the bumper stickers. The shopping was mostly Walmart and Super K, and there were several restaurants like Ruby Tuesday and Friendly's. The closest big city is Columbus, which is a good hike. Sorry for the jumble of facts. I am weary.</p>
<p>"...from evil to punk music."</p>
<p>I didn't realize it was that large a journey.... ;)</p>
<p>DD knows kids from her HS who go to Kenyon, they are Sr's now. I don't have details, but they said they have really liked it. No problems with rural (and they are from Los Angeles), but they do have a couple classmates from HS with them there. One thing they did emphasize is how easy it was after HS. They told her not to worry about a thing, college is easy. I think one, at least, is an English major. I'm don't know, but this likely refelects the demanding HS schedule they had and the lower amount of classes in college, but I'm not really sure and it makes me wonder.</p>
<p>Now my dd is getting cold feet about Chicago because of feedback from people who didn't go there, HS alumni, people who told her how rigorous it is. We loved it on our visit. And she only ever hangs out with a 1/2 dozen friends and likes to play tennis and swim. We were sure it was easy to find 4 or 6 of "your people". But now she is wondering about working like a dog and not coming up to snuff. pfft</p>
<p>Aw c'mon TheDad, you know you like it down in the College Confidential mosh pit!</p>
<p>Bettina: My daughter's host has a nice circle of friends. They were planning a trip to a Spanish restaurant to eat tapas, and she said she goes out a couple times a week. She said she has met most of her friends in classes and that she does not hang with the same group of friends she had freshman year. She is excited about her classes and did not complain about unreasonable demands. Her schedule seemed comfortable; she had only one class on Friday, for example. My daughter's reservations center on the high number of people she met who seemed like loners and the lack of the close community spirit she found at the liberal arts colleges. If your D loved the campus when she visited, she probably will be comfortable in a university setting. One thing I have concluded--no situation will be perfect.</p>
<p>bettina,
Your d's reactions ("cold feet") about Chicago coincide with similar feedback my own D and I have received over the last 4 yrs., from current Chicago students & from recent alums. </p>
<p>My D has attended several college panels from returning h.s. students. Inevitably, "High school was easier" is the refrain from most of these students, except in 2 cases: (1) Those majoring in the hard sciences at high-profile U's with a prominent science reputation, and (2) U of Chicago. [None of the panelists have represented Ivies; maybe, LOL, the Ivy students don't have time to take a break to do a college panel.]</p>
<p>My D attends a very rigorous private college prep school. Even less rigorous high school programs appear to be more demanding on a high schooler's time than most colleges, because of add'l non-academic commitments for most teens, & because of homework loads that often exceed, at least in volume, the typical college load. But that would be esp. true when compared to my own D's h.s. Thus, when a returning U of Chicago freshman looks drained, & says with a slight gasp in her voice to this, her own demanding h.s., that her current amount of reading is tremendous & that college is "harder than h.s.," I take the words & the body language seriously. She strained to spin her words to sound as if she was having a little bit of fun, but her face & voice said otherwise.</p>
<p>Now, granted, this is for the Humanities. (Both the panelists in question & my own D.) Perhaps with the sciences the amt. of undergrad work is just equal to any other demanding, fine college or U, including an Ivy. </p>
<p>I am very familiar with Ph.D. programs in the various humanities, including interdisciplinary ones. In my opinion, Chicago's <em>undergrad</em> requirements in some of their humanities dept's are very similar to Ph.D. programs at most U's. The expectation of the amount of mastery of material is what one would expect of a Ph.D. candidate preparing for oral and/or written Comprehensives. This is not the undergrad experience I want for my D, or she wants for herself. She is definitely the kind of student who will undoubtedly seek a higher degree, probably including a Ph.D. Just not at age 18, thank you.</p>
<p>epiphany - If I understand you correctly, you are saying that Bettina's daughter's friends who report that Kenyon is "easier than high school" are not reporting something specific to Kenyon, but that this would be true of many LACs and universities (with the exception of U of Chicago and science programs at top universities). Please correct me if I am misunderstanding you. Thanks.</p>
<p>MotherOfTwo,
That is, yes, what I am saying. This is derived from both in-person reports & from similar feedback on CC.</p>
<p>The only exception that I've heard of are cases where the college student assumes a major earnings portion of their college expenses and/or has a significant commute or other drains on time. Thus, a college student we've heard from who attends a school in Arizona reports that for her, college is harder, but in the same breath discusses her employment obligations in college & her comparatively non-demanding load at her low-profile public high school. This person sounds as if she's working about 30 hours a week & attempting a full undergrad schedule as well. She's also the type of student who struggles academically.</p>
<p>I also would have no information about how a recruited athlete compares the difficulty of college + athletics vs. high school + athletics.</p>
<p>epiphany--some kids definitely are looking for a college experience that is harder than high school. One of the things my S found funny at one college (and this is a school that he considered attending) was that one of the girls he met on tour complained about her heavy homework load--two hours a day! I would say that comment dropped the college down several notches in his eyes. . . But it is not just the matter of the amount of homework , it is how one thinks about things. I discouraged my son from Chicago for some of the reasons you mentioned. It is an intense place. But one thing that I inadvertently said hooked him "Chicago changes the way you think about things." He told me later that that is what he was looking for in a school.</p>
<p>mstee,
I think both your S's observation & your own kind of goes without saying, if you will. Yes, I would expect than any respectable 4-yr institution would "change the way [a student] thinks about things," sees things, etc. But I do not necessarily see Chicago supplying that <em>more</em> than many other, most other, colleges.</p>
<p>Keep in mind that the content of college curriculum COMBINED WITH the cognitive developmental level of the college-age student, is what provides (& makes possible) that transformed perception which you name.</p>
<p>To look at it from another side, i.m.o. the college undergrad yrs. are not necessarily the optimum time to benefit from the kind of transformed perceptions that will occur on the <em>doctoral level</em> of learning, because that will occur most effectively after the previous levels have been assimilated. That's all I'm saying. In my opinion, some of the freshman humanities curriculum I have seen at Chicago is not appropriate for an 18-yr-old, no matter how brilliant, no matter how accomplished, no matter how good the h.s. preparation was & how advanced the student. And I'm speaking here of intellectual appropriateness. I haven't even addressed the issue of consuming every available moment of a freshman's time (such has been reported to us), which dismisses their needs for social connections & continued extrac. growth., which is equally imp. in a college experience.</p>
<p>A high school with 2 hrs. homework/night was not the model of comparison,BTW. My D's h.s. would not belong in such a category, nor most of the h.schools reported about on CC. And although AP courses can vary in quality, as we've seen on CC, my own D's have been college-content-rich & demanding in output. That is why, for most high-achieving h.s. graduates, most colleges in this country will be "easier than h.s." (Probably!) I would doubt that the girl your son met on tour was such a high-achiever. </p>
<p>I'm not sure what Chicago's "point" is in piling on as they do for their undergrads. To reinforce that it is a "Major Research University"? Like we didn't know that? And could we please exempt freshmen from that research, unless that's chosen by the student as addenda? I just get this feeling that they're trying to "prove" something or make some kind of statement, as in perhaps, "We may not be an Ivy, but we're harder than an Ivy, because our Exhaustion Quotient is higher." (And your goal is......? That your students will feel as if they're in an intellectual military academy?)</p>
<p>Chicago is a very fine school, with exceptionally fine humanities offerings, & a deep appreciation, it would seem, of the important interdisciplinary character of humanities studies. But the volume of undergrad work is completely unnecessary & over-the-top, in my view. I don't know if this an internally driven product or whether they shape their curriculum with a wide peripheral vision extending toward Connecticut, New Jersey, Massachusetts, etc.</p>
<p>Epiphany,</p>
<p>"In my opinion, some of the freshman humanities curriculum I have seen at Chicago is not appropriate for an 18-yr-old, no matter how brilliant, no matter how accomplished, no matter how good the h.s. preparation was & how advanced the student."</p>
<p>Could you be specific about which curriculum you have seen that is inappropriate for 18-year-old's? My S has been accepted EA and, while he is smart beyond his years, this statement worries me. What are these required courses or assignments that are intellectually too advanced, in your opinion? Thanks!</p>
<p>I will add to ephiphany. My daughter has many friends and acquaintances who are now in college but who went to her high school - almost all of them report college as being easier than high school. I agree with ephiphany that this is pretty common at many schools.</p>
<p>"Chicago is a very fine school, with exceptionally fine humanities offerings, & a deep appreciation, it would seem, of the important interdisciplinary character of humanities studies. But the volume of undergrad work is completely unnecessary & over-the-top, in my view."</p>
<p>I think you miss the main point. Students who attend UChicago (and Reed) LIKE it that way. That's why they choose them. It's no different than choosing a school that is really big on football, or religious observance. They aren't "better" or "worse"; just different. I think it is wonderful that such choices are available, and the colleges are very open about what they do (and do NOT) offer. I would just encourage anyone considering these schools to make sure to go and kick the tires.</p>
<p>". But the volume of undergrad work is completely unnecessary & over-the-top, in my view."</p>
<p>Wow. Woah. Pretty judgemental here? </p>
<p>Funny, for someone who talks about cognitive development, maybe epiphany forgot about esprit de corps, and the fact that Chicago kids are proud of how hard they work, and may be prone to exaggeration. Just as some kids claim to "never study" but put in their share of time, some kids, with pride, will take the opposite tack, speaking with pride about how hard they work.</p>
<p>I can tell you from secondhand knowledge (my D) that the hums courses she's taking are not that hard. She even wrote to her HS teachers about how similar the workload, course approach and course content were to her HS english courses. Yes she works hard in other courses, because she expects A work of herself in a school that does not give out many As. Many of her classmates are not like that.</p>
<p>Epiph, you've convinced us that Chicago is not for your family. OK. We got the point.</p>
<p>epiphany--you certainly seem to have issues with Chicago.</p>
<p>Thank you Newmassdad!--I had written a lengthy post about how my experience at Chicago was not like what epiphany describes as far as work load goes, though I still maintain that it is an intense place. I decided not to post it, though, because it is not a message that epiphany wants to hear. However, for the rest of you, what I remember about Chicago, mostly, was very selective readings (not vast quantities), and discussions, endless discussions of the ideas therein. And wine and cheese parties (this was back in the 70's). And one of the comments that my son had after first quarter was done, was that he thought his humanities teacher was "an easy grader"--but hey, I'm sure it will get harder as time goes by.</p>
<p>The girl with the two hours of homework (gasp!) was at St. Olaf, for those of you that were maybe wondering. I have no idea what her major is . . .It's still on my list for my D's though, because of some of the programs they offer to the cream of the crop and their amazing music program.</p>
<p>If one wants to pay $30,000 - $40,000 per year because it's "easier than High School" then go for it. Those kid's that I have talked to who have said their school is easier than high school don't seem to be so thrilled to me, they seem disappointed. I also don't understand these issues with schools that are too rigorous. Parents sending kids to MIT, Cal Tech, Harvard, Cornell aren't complaining the school is too rigorous. I would put Chicago in that group. As has been said before, Chicago is not for everyone and best to find out before having to transfer. Ted O'neil, admissions officer at Chicago, has stated that he has the easiest job in his business, he just needs to find 1,100 kids every year who think learning is fun.</p>