Visits to University of Chicago and Kenyon

Parent Cafe
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<p>The great thing about CC is all the varying viewpoints and many of the posters ability to articulate those viewpoints. I read the WHOLE thread so far, because DS#2 a junior had BOTH of the schools named in the thread header on his list. Well, I had put them on his list with his "permission".</p>

<p>He has received a bunch of "stuff" from Chicago and as usual, he reads it all. Doesn't comment, just reads it, puts it in a bucket, and humpfs at me. After reading on CC for years about U of C, I thought it would be a perfect fit for him. He loves reading way out there books (my observations, my non-college educated observation), loves math for math, physics and relishes history and economics. Has for a really long time. So I thought, this might be a good "fit" for him.</p>

<p>That big prospectus (Chicago) came a couple of weeks ago and he read that whole thing. I didn't. But I told him again it might be a good fit. He went through the list with me AGAIN, what he was looking for. He's had 9 APs has a junior, econ, calc BC, us and euro, chem, stats, spanish, engl....3 univ classes as a sophomore, more math and science, did cancer research at duke's med school, is fluent in several languages, BUT and a BIG BUT, he loves being a varsity football player. He loves being a varsity wrestler, yes he has classes with all the "super achievers" but he never has been, nor never will be a "nerd." He is ranked 1 in his class, #2 is almost a whole grade point behind him but he just doesn't fit in socially with them. His circle of friends are the football players, the wrestlers, they are his closests friends and the stuff they talk about and want to do are what interest him.</p>

<p>So I was wrong, again. After reading this thread I have come to realize that he was right and has been right. Yes there is a difference between intelligence and intellectual,and my son has been trying to explain it to me and I just didn't get it. He sees his school work and subjects as "tools" to use to accomplish his goals. He does love math for math but because it can be useful in solving many problems. Same with chem and bio and physics. I just didn't get it. He loves to read history to see why things happened as they did. More solutions. But it seems U of C is for those who love to learn for the sake of learning, and I think my son has different reasons.</p>

<p>I get it now. I am sure he has already crossed Chicago off his list, he just hadn't told me yet.</p>

<p>As usual, CC has helped with my kiddos college stuff more than I would have thought possible (I am on kiddo #4, he's the junior). Both sets of parents viewpoints on this subject helped immeasurably, especially those that already have children at Chicago. The descriptions of your children and what they enjoy (academically) really helped me understand what my son has been trying to tell me.</p>

<p>Thanks again guys.</p>

<p>Kat</p>

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<p>By one tint of meaning, and Webster would agree, an intellectual is involved in activities that require the Creative use of knowledge and mind. </p>

<p>Maybe as Marite suggests, this discussion is about (or should be about) atmosphere, not intellect. </p>

<p>I like Chicago, I like its atmosphere. I like that parents and students are happy and proud of their school--that's what we all want isn't it?</p>

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<p>katwkittens (& most of this is directed toward those who have a hard time accepting that academic excellence exists beyond Chicago, so apologies in advance if this sounds heavy-handed; I don't mean it personally against you, & enjoyed your post),</p>

<p>...but (kwk), you do realize, do you not, that there are hundreds, possibly thousands, of students who fit the very "mold" of intellectual vs. (just) intelligent, pure love-of-learning types, who happen not to be attending U of Chicago? I never didn't understand the intelligent vs. intellectual thing, & certainly didn't need CC posters to inform me of this; it could be inferred, actually, from much of the literature, on the part of those of us who are both intelligent & intellectual. And U of Chicago must have seen my D as clearly "the type" that belongs at their school, as they've been seriously recruiting her for quite some time.</p>

<p>My D has an academic profile similar to your S's (as you named his APs, rank, etc.), & she continues to this day to be recruited by extremely top U's (in addition to Chicago), along with multiple scholarship offers from these schools, extra interviews, on & on. She has a few reasons for deselecting Chicago, absolutely none of which have to do with C's "intellectual" focus.
(1) Location. She wanted E. Coast specifically, for certain cultural reasons, some of which tie in with her major/double major. (2) Particular extracurr. & other opportunities avail. at certain Ivies, etc., that Chicago does not have. (3) Preference for certain breadth requirements at these alternates, which she felt would challenge her more, be more intriguing, cutting-edge, etc., than what was offered or required at Chicago, after she investigated both. (4) Particular electives she would be allowed to take at certain Ivies, within the 4 yrs., given the greater <em>quantity</em> in some cases of major & breadth requirements at U of C., allowing her less flexibility. (She also happens to be mature & self-directed, & wanted a little more control over her program than U of C offered.) (5) The possibility of enrolling in a core, Primary Sources program (Directed Studies) with a small group of other freshmen, which has already been offered to her at an Ivy prior to her even inquiring.</p>

<p>None of her reasons would pertain to less challenge, less love of learning, etc., or learning as a "tool" for something else. (Although I can appreciate why your equally accomplished S might choose to go elsewhere, with a diff. focus.) Her reasons also had nothing to do with wanting more "fun" at these alternate top schools. (She considers learning to be her major source of fun.) And being completely non-rah-rah, non-jock, & non-"Greek," she also had no interest in those aspects of non-U of Ch. schools. She's a poster girl for a U of Chicago student. She just happens not to be going there.</p>

<p>Pure intellectuals fill the classrooms of many other schools in addition to U of Chicago. Anyone who thinks otherwise flatters & deceives himself/herself. It seems that some of you don't get out much.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
you do realize, do you not, that there are hundreds, possibly thousands, of students who fit the very "mold" of intellectual vs. (just) intelligent, pure love-of-learning types, who happen not to be attending U of Chicago?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Okay, one more time: No...One...Said...There...Weren't. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Pure intellectuals fill the classrooms of many other schools in addition to U of Chicago. Anyone who thinks otherwise flatters & deceives himself/herself.

[/quote]
. </p>

<p>Yes, we all know that. The vast majority of us are NOT sending our kids to UChicago, and we KNOW that.</p>

<p>
[quote]
She also happens to be mature & self-directed, & wanted a little more control over her program than U of C offered.)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, good for her, wouldn't want her to hang around with all those immature folks who need to be told what to do who are in Core programs (ok, that one I took personally.)</p>

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<p>I have to say that reading this thread is making me crazy. I really don't know how or where anyone got the idea that the U of C administration, the students or the literature state or believe that it is the "only" place where an intellectual student could be happy. As I mentioned, I have a S who is a 2nd year at Chicago. I also have a S who will be attending another top 15 school next year. They are both intelligent and intellectual. They were just looking for different things for their college experiences. Neither was a "nerd" in high school, except to the extent that no one could understand their fascination with reading books that hadn't been assigned (!). They both love to learn and believed all through the college process that many schools would fit the bill as far as that was concerned. Actually, my S ended up at Chicago because we were visiting NU and U of C with a friend of his. He was actually interested in NU and the friend wanted to see Chicago. Funny how things work out. Turns out that after spending 1 day on campus my son knew that Chicago was the place for him. After returning for a formal overnight and an informal weekend with a friend, he knew it was the right place. That, in my humble opinion, is all that matters. Does it feel right to your son or daughter.
More than intellectual I would classify Chicago as quirky...in a good way. Works for some, doesn't work for others.</p>

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<p>It seems that some of you don't get out much.</p>

<p>And some of us live on the doorsteps of some of the most selective schools. In my case, Harvard, MIT, Tufts and a few others I don't need to "get out much" to know the kind of students these attract. There are plenty of intelligent and intellectual kids there; but the atmosphere at these three schools is not like the one at Chicago.</p>

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<p>FYI, garland,</p>

<p>I am not alone in my perception of snobbery & misplaced exclusivity over U of Chicago on this board -- not among parents, not among students. Major disagreement with you; several parents "said" it in a # of ways; when their points were refuted, they continued to come back with "only a certain type of student" belongs at U of Ch., & that if you don't choose Chicago, you're not that type of student. </p>

<p>You totally misread & overreacted to the list of D's reasons for deselection. Core program (a positive) was a separate reason from more control over shaping the program. There have been implications (BTW) over & over on this thread that breadth requirements at various U's are just oh-so-diff. from the special, hallowed sacred "core" that U of Ch. has. That's why the comment from me about people who don't get out much. Many colleges,/U's have such a Core. (Oh, there was a token nod to Columbia for having a core, but with the snide remark about it must really be NYC that's the attraction.) People selected for such programs at <em>other</em> U's are already recognized as those who like to discuss Wittgenstein, etc. over lunch -- as opposed to doing the minimum, etc. Chicago students have been repeatedly <em>contrasted</em> in this regard, by some parents here, versus non-C. students. You need to flame them, not me. Just read marite's new post; it's being said once again: they know what "kind" of student is attracted to those "other" schools. No they don't, because they don't know my D. Period. They do NOT get out much, or they have blinders on when they leave the house.</p>

<p>Sorry if you're offended by the "m" word. I meant it as in focused, not more grown-up. Many otherwise very mature kids are not sure what they want to major in, let alone further refinements of what they want their program to look like. I think that's the norm, & not everyone wants to tailor or take control over their own program, early or late; the fact that my D wants to,makes her diff. but definitely not better. I was enumerating reasons for preferences, since the argument for 3 bleepin' pages from the Chicago parents was that those who choose to go elsewhere must be less "intellectual" or must prefer a less intelletual style in a college. (oh, gee, gag me with an encyclopedia.)</p>

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<p>As far as "you don't get out much" that would be true in my case. As a single "younger" mom of my 5 kiddos there hasn't been a whole lot of opportunity for me to get out much to anywhere. Except of course to high school football games, swim meets, track meets, and every other EC imaginable. With 3 in high school I should have gotten my class C license to drive the school bus!</p>

<p>We also have 2 in college now and both ended up there without school visits. I am grateful they both like where they are at. And my senior applied to schools she too did not visit. Hopefully she will end up somewhere that is acceptable for her. So when looking at Chicago we have the paperwork from them, and CC for insight. And my son is the "rah-rah type" "jock", where school pride is a very big deal and his brother likes being in a fraternity, so it might be something he wants to consider. I did not realize there were poster "children" for any school. I just thought based on the info they had been sending us and what I have learned from CC was that Chicago might be a good "fit" for him. </p>

<p>But honestly, he will make anywhere he goes a good "fit". I thought he might really enjoy himself there. His "fun factor" for a school will not be how challenging the curriculm is, he's just not wired that way. I think the level of academics would be more what is appropriate for who he is as a person and as a student. But he realizes the intrinsic value of knowledge and learning, and it is a priority, its not just THE priority. I am sure many schools are filled with "pure intellectuals" but I don't personally know any, hence my "not getting out much."</p>

<p>I hope when my children come back from school that they don't think I "don't get out much." It is one thing to know that to be true it is another to be told that.</p>

<p>Kat</p>

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<p>Well, ephiphany, I guess I still am not sure why the sore spot re Chicago. Chicago thinks it is the best at what it does. Yes, I have heard that. But, I have heard the same thing about Princeton, Berkeley, UCLA, Stanford, Yale, etc. I live close to Berkeley, and am surrounded by folks who adore Berkeley, went to Berkeley, they hope and pray their kids get into Berkeley, etc. They think Berkeley is THE BEST SCHOOL IN THE UNIVERSE AND THAT THEIR KIDS ARE REALLY SMART BECAUSE THEY GO THERE AND CERTAINLY SMARTER THAN MINE WHO IS GOING TO SOME UNKNOWN SCHOOL IN CHICAGO (what, didn't he get into a UC?) Well, I exaggerate, but <em>The attitude</em> can be obnoxious, but I don't take it personally (well, mostly not, anyway!) I really am not sure where you are coming from.</p>

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<p>folks, this is getting a little intense.</p>

<p>epiph: 1) I am probably not a good reader, but I cannot find anywhere on this thread, or any other cc thread, where UofC supporters put down anyone who goes elsewhere or infer that kids that go elsehwere are less intellectual than those at UofC. My interpretation of Dean O'Neill's comments is that they are more likely to accept a BWRK who loves to learn than other top schools, which prefer well-lopsided kids who love to learn. But, everyone here would agree that ALL top schools accept kids who love to learn, and no where does it imply otherwise. (Even many recruited athletes excel in the classroom.)</p>

<p>2) Of the ~3,000 colleges in the US, a very small percentage have a solid core curriculum, such as that offered by UofC, Columbia, and St. Johns (the great books schools). Many, many schools do have distribution requirements in one form or another, but that does not a core curriculum make, IMO. (Suggest taking a look at "Choosing the Right College" which has a description of schools with core programs -- based on the authors biases.) Then, of course, we have Brown, Amherst and others, that let kids make a degree. All provide a great education for the right kid.</p>

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<p>This thread is beginning to remind me of Kurosawa's Roshamon, or maybe a quantum mechanical space-time warp? It would qualify for comedy if some did not take it so seriously...I still think it amazing how those of us who have followed these boards for a few years could have missed all those negative posts from others: "I am not alone in my perception of snobbery & misplaced exclusivity over U of Chicago on this board". Oh? Missed those. Sorry. Or "...& from similar feedback on CC." Missed that, too. "hat fact, & it is a fact, has been noted by many more people than me, much earlier than me, on many more threads on College Confidential than this one." Missed those threads, too.</p>

<p>Gee, I guess I should do more careful reading in the future? Or is this just Roshamon?</p>

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<p>LOL mstee! It's the same here. "what? you didn't get into UT?" I wanted to get my son a shirt with PA on it so he could better explain where he went to school. </p>

<p>FWIW I talked to one of the Forensic sponsors today about his son who is at U Chicago, and according to the father he's loving every minute of it.</p>

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<p>epiphany</p>

<p><and u="" of="" chicago="" must="" have="" seen="" my="" d="" as="" clearly="" "the="" type"="" that="" belongs="" at="" their="" school,="" they've="" been="" seriously="" recruiting="" her="" for="" quite="" some="" time.=""></and></p>

<p>What kind of things have they done? I can't say that has happened to my S at all. Where else has she been looking? Where do you think she will end up?</p>

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<p>katwkittens:
Your post about your S reminded me of mine. My S is highly intelligent ( If I may say so). I'm not sure whether I would consider him an intellectual but there's time--he's still 16. He had been very seriously considering MIT as his top choice until the information session at MIT. The dean emphasized that MIT wanted to attract "hands-on" types; my S has built things for which he has won a prize or two, but he knows that he is not as keen on building things as some of his friends. He is not a born engineer as they are. It does not make him more or less intelligent than they, just different. He also knows that he could certainly find a group of students at MIT who would share his love of pure math and theoretical physics, but the atmosphere at MIT would be dominated by the engineering focus. Would he have been unhappy at MIT? Probably not. </p>

<p>Your S will make any school he attends work for him; and he will find plenty of highly intelligent kids in scores of colleges; some will have great school spirit and athletic programs; others will put the emphasis elsewhere. I would suggest Williams, Amherst, Princeton or Harvard; not Reed, Chicago, MIT or Swarthmore. All are great schools, and all have sports; but role of sports varies and the atmosphere at each is different.</p>

<p>PS: You don't need to "get out much." Be an armchair traveler and use the internet. :)</p>

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<p>I'm getting out of discussions involving epiphany.</p>

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<p>I would say someone who lives in Cambridge/Boston and close to so many universities does get out a lot! Wow! Probably a lot more than many of us here..</p>

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<p>Epiphany, you seem to miss the point of Chicago's advertising itself as a school which prides itself on intellectualism, and have a huge beef with it. The Ivies, MIT, CalTech, Stanford, et. al. already have this reputation - they sell themselves, and it is understood that they are high-quality schools. Chicago is obviously less well known, so it needs to point out that it is <em>just as good</em> as far as pure education goes, not that it is the best school on the planet. Most people would probably think the "University of Chicago" is a state school, and it is these people that their advertising is directed to in order to inform them of the quality of the school. Chicago advertising itself as intellectual is no different than Duke advertising itself as a great combination of social life/sports/academics (and believe me, it does - I have the junk mail to prove it)- neither school have a monopoly on those areas, but they use it to their advantage in advertising. Neither claim to be the best.</p>

<p>edit: btw, kat, Chicago is not a school that is full of only pure intellectuals. As far as Division III sports go they are decent (I know someone on the soccer team), and while there isn't as much pomp associated with Div III it allows people who are good, but not fantastic, at their favorite sport to play it competetively.</p>

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<p>It is actually very hard to describe this "intellectual feel" until you go there and see it for yourself - by spending time with the students. Almost all students who go to top schools are wonderful students, very very intelligent and capable. The feeling at Swat (the school I know about) is, it is cool to be a nerd. I guess that is what sets these schools apart from others. Some may call it pretentious and fake. But the people who go there don't think so. I've heard the word 'wierd' many times associated with students at Swat in this forum and elsewhere. </p>

<p>I don't think Chicago needs to prove it is 'just as good'......imho.</p>

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<p>And the other thing I've noticed is, because the general student body is not as mainstream as other places (and please don't flame me, your kids going there might be mainstream), these schools are also the subject of controversy such as this. Lots of very different feelings for the school - very positive and very negative and nothing in between.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I'm getting out of discussions involving epiphany.

[/quote]
I'd say you you've had an epiphany, Marite.</p>

<p>My resolution, perhaps parallel to yours, is to avoid listening to broken and scratchy records.</p>