<p>WOW! Thank you all for this post. For us, auditions start next week. I too am concerned about my D’s future, but she chose VP over MT. I personally don’t want to limit her, and as was suggested have her regret a decision later on. However, all of your collective advice is being passed along! No debt, understanding the process, etc. THANK YOU.</p>
<p>Hello Simple Life - Would you mind sending me a PM regarding. Baylor, TCU and SMU? I know you did this journey a few years ago and my lovely D soprano is now beginning. She auditioned for the Nordan at TCU, SMU has been great, Baylor is impressive. What to do?</p>
<p>Hi OliviaMezzo!
I hate to say all this over a public forum … people have better things to read and I certainly don’t want to veer far off topic from this thread … but the alternative is not answering you at all for days. </p>
<p>My apologies in advance to those who don’t want to read these specifics … please skip ahead! ;)</p>
<p>My PM boxes are too full right now – must take the time to sort and save prior to starting another PM conversation. No time to do so right now. (Have you used the PM system yet? It’s remarkably cumbersome for this day and age.) I go overseas this afternoon for work, where I’ll have very limited internet access.</p>
<p>So, I’m sorry! I can’t really PM you for the next several days. But I may be able to answer your questions here or on another thread – if you want to direct me somewhere else.</p>
<p>I just finished skimming your other posts.</p>
<p>I have had kids audition at all 3 of those schools. Two kids at two of the schools and one kid at the other.</p>
<p>Re: the Nordan. Sadly, in our experience, that award rarely, if ever, goes to a vocal performance applicant. Each year that we have heard about the results, it has gone to an instrumentalist. A few vocalists/‘parents-of’ have PM’d me over the years, excited at their prospects. When I tell them this news, they remain eager and pretty certain that THEY are going to be the exception – because the music school is showing SO much interest in their kid. I really admire several of the faculty over there! They’re wonderful. It is a fine school, and I have no doubt that the faculty are sincerely interested in the kids whom they’re encouraging to audition for the Nordan. I don’t think anybody’s being duplicitous or manipulative. It’s just that statistics have shown that the Nordan goes to instrumentalists, not vocalists, in my experience. Every year, the students/parents who thought they were going to be the exception PM to tell me that I was right – their kid didn’t get the Nordan. We, too, were excited at the prospects years ago. My kid didn’t get it either. They DID, however, help him in many ways. So it all worked out. And we were very grateful, to say the least! Great school; great faculty; the Nordan is unlikely for a VP major, imo. (Am I now, oddly, in sync with the foundation of this thread – ‘voice audition blues?’)</p>
<p>I read in your other posts that your lovely D has been having trouble with college admissions versus music admissions. At least one school has deferred her admission, while the music school has simultaneously asked her to audition, right? I agree with the poster who responded that, in most schools of music, if the music school really wants her following her audition, they will often successfully encourage the university’s general admissions side of the house to accept her. If your D is a standout musician, this may be in the cards for her. In some schools, this is not the case.</p>
<p>There is NOTHING wrong with calling the music school to ask! Your D can do this. If she’s developed a specific contact at the music school (voice faculty, or whatever), she can just pick up the phone and call to inquire. She can ask frankly about her prospects, given that she’s been deferred, and, amongst the 3 schools you named, she is likely to get a frank reply. It sounds like TCU is really interested in her, for one. I am relatively certain that her music contact there will be helpful and honest and direct. They always were with us. Same with the other 2 schools, actually.</p>
<p>I understand that a lot of your question was about whether to buy an airline ticket and take on all the other expenses for an audition given that the general university has deferred her. Unfortunately, that’s such a sticky situation and I don’t think anybody here can help you decide. If she doesn’t audition, that school will obviously be off her list. If she DOES audition and doesn’t get in, you’ve wasted a lot of money. If she DOES audition and DOES get in, will you be able to afford the school? All 3 of those schools are VERY expensive.</p>
<p>SMU and TCU tend to be generous with talent and merit scholarships, in our experience. And they’re very need-based aware, too, from what we’ve heard. Baylor is very generous with academic scholarships, but as I understand it, your D’s grades, while very good, are not tippy-top. Tippy-top stats get the big bucks at Baylor. </p>
<p>So, I’m afraid I can’t help you with that dilemma either. I’m sorry! It sounds like it’s going to come down to guesswork: Is she good enough to wow the panel in a way that will have them requesting her attendance from university admissions? If she doesn’t get in, will you have considered this money well spent anyway? And which decision will bring you greater regrets: spending the money to audition without a resulting admission, or not spending the money to audition and throwing away the opportunity? It’s a tough call! I’m sorry you’re in that position, OliviaMezzo.</p>
<p>With B+ average grades, your D sounds like she’d be a fine student and could hack the general university curriculum. I don’t know what her hs transcripts look like from her school of the arts. Does she have the standard smattering of math, science, language, history, etc? Was that the university’s concern? If their concern was simply that far more applicants were academic standouts, so she didn’t make the cut, that is, imo, LESS of a concern. If their concern was that she hasn’t had the basic foundation that they like to see as a predictor of success in a liberal arts college, then THAT, imo, is MORE of a concern. All 3 of the schools you mentioned require a core curriculum of math, science, and humanities. No college wants to put an applicant in a bad position from the start. They only want to accept applicants who they think will be successful in their program. You probably feel the same way. If their concern is that your D won’t be successful in the liberal arts core curriculum, then you probably wouldn’t want to subject her to that etiher. (And then there’s always the music major academic requirements, which are no picnic in and of themselves!)</p>
<p>Anyway, if you have any other specific questions, feel free to ask them here – if it’s okay with the OP and others. I mean, these ARE ‘VP audition blues,’ right? OR, you can direct me to another thread and I’ll look for you there. I’ll try to check again before I leave for my trip. If not, I’ll try to catch you while I’m overseas in some random Starbucks or hotel lobby! ;)</p>
<p>All my best to you and your D in the meanwhile! :)</p>
<p>Re: TCU. I am very good friends with one of the brass professors at TCU. He reports that they have had record number of applicants this year - and at least for brass - extremely high caliber. He said last weeks’ auditions were amazing. And he reports that the academics requirements are becoming more challenging. BUT, if the music dept wants you, they can go to bat for you with admissions, to a point. He said that they won’t advocate for a student, no matter how talented, if they feel he/she will struggle academically. </p>
<p>He has also not been particularly encouraging re: the Nordan for vocalists. He knows my S (bass-baritone, Youngarts finalist, etc) very well - and felt that the most $ S would get would be about $20,000 talent/academic merit (2250 SAT, top 5%). In the end, S did not apply.</p>
<p>All that said, I love the school, campus, etc. My D was accepted for MT three years ago and I was disappointed that she did not go there. She also received about $20,000 in merit from TCU.</p>
<p>^I promise – not as a point of bragging rights, but as further information, one of my kids received significantly more than $20K in talent/merit money at TCU. Top stats. We were told top talent, though that’s clearly less definable and not my prerogative to say. Point is: for future readers, there are (or were, anyway) really big scholarships for top stats and top talent at TCU. YMMV and I’m sure these things vary from year to year, too, depending on funding and the ‘quality’ of each year’s applicants. $20k is an amazing scholarship and something to be proud of, too! But for us, we couldn’t have afforded the school despite that generous amount.</p>
<p>Thanks so much for your complete and honest advice. VP audition blues? We’ve had our days. But what goes down in the rental car after the audition stays in the rental car ")</p>
<p>It helps not to think of it as a singing competition so much as some way to evaluate the application which cannot be done from the paper process. Unlike academics there is no “score” to evaluate and an essay does not do much good to evaluate if someone has the potential to succeed in the major. We found as an undergrad applicant that they were listening for different things than any competition. Although you should be technically proficient, we found they were more interested in the intangible musicality and potential than the most techincally expert. DD had relatively little techncal expertise and could never win any of the competitions she tried yet was accepted in all her applications and with music scholarships, attending Rice in the end. </p>
<p>As odd as it may sound to those just embarking on this process, I miss it. DD is doing the grad school rounds now (totally different game) and I am not a part of it at all, except help with airfares 
I miss the times we had together traveling and even my role as holder of all things extra - coats, boots, bags, music, water etc. It was a special time when I could share a tiny peice of her life. So take heart. It passes quickly and the results always seem to work out for the best in the end. Best wishes for all those auditioning this season.</p>
<p>everything Singersmom07 just said X10</p>
<p>especially “intangible musicality”
Our experience exactly.</p>
<p>woops----correction,things change…should have said HER experience</p>
<p>So, “intanglible musicality”??? Does that mean the kids should focus on how they express their pieces and relate to the audience, rather than focusing on showing their technique? Should they relax, assume their technique is there to support them, and think about really wow-ing the judges with their performance ability? When I look again at D’s pre-screens, I can see that she focused on perfect technique rather than theatricality. Looking back, it is surprising, because she has always been an outstanding performer, really engaging her audience. For the pre-screen, everything we had heard and that her voice teacher had told her was that the purpose of the pre-screen was to show technical ability, training, and potential. She and her teacher chose art songs that played well to her technique and showed off her sound, but that were not particularly exciting. In making the pre-screen, D was concentrating on technique and sound, rather than treating the pre-screen as a full-blown audition. She did pass two pre-screens so far, but also was declined on two. I’m now thinking the reason was that she didn’t show she had that wow factor. In hindsight, I think I would have treated the pre-screen as her one and only shot, and given it full-audition treatment. Instead of going through the logistics of booking professional sound/video people and finding a lovely acoustic space (and thereby trying to get everything right in one place in one afternoon), I would have dialed down the technical aspects of the pre-screen, making multiple recordings in different sessions, using fewer people and lesser-quality technology (her ipad in her teacher’s studio would have been fine), to make sure we got her most exciting performances on tape. Lessons learned. What do others think of the technically great pre-screen versus the wow factor?</p>
<p>I am not trying to be flippant…but the operative word is “intangible”. And I really do not think that this sort of musicality can be dialed into some recording or performances. And to complicate matters, as far as the audition panelists go, some ears are going to hear it an some are not going to hear it. It’s the non quantifiable aspect of this process that can drive you nuts.She can only do her best.</p>
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<p>Right. And that kind of makes sense, too. I mean how many 17-18 year olds are going to be technically perfect? (Or 21-22 year olds for grad school?) I always told my son that for college auditions, he should find a way to be as confident and relaxed and happy as possible prior to walking in that audition door. Because, after all, I’ve told him, they are looking for somebody they want to TEACH! They’re NOT looking for perfection. And there’s not ANYBODY in the entire audition room that’s going to be able to deliver perfection. So relax, be yourself, and do what you’ve been trained to do. The rest will fall into place if you’ve got the goods to do this for a living. </p>
<p>As he’s gotten older, he’s told me, “I’m just going to try to relax about this audition. If I can’t make [this program], then I need to know that now anyway. Because that will mean I probably can’t make it as a professional singer.” True enough, I suppose. It’s a very self-selecting field.</p>
<p>It has taken many years, and my D still cant leave an audition without comparing herself to the person who sang before or after her, or those psych out moments in the waiting and warm up rooms. Some kids are better at auditioning than others, and have nerves of steel. I tell her all the time that she can only be who she is; if they are interested in working with her, they will, if not, on to the next. Throughout this college process I’ve held to the belief that she will find a program that wants her, her voice, her grades, her experience, and her energy. It may not be her first choice or where I would expect her to attend, but I’m hoping for a good fit. It is a torturous, expensive, stressful process, and my mantra to her is make sure you have fun and this is what you want to be doing. </p>
<p>My D does not have the biggest voice, or the most technical, but she loves performing. When I asked a vocal teacher what my D’s particular draw was, being that her voice is still rather young compared to others her age, the reply was that she can sing a song in a way that they can’t teach. I think this is a touch of the mysterious "intangible musicality. Does everyone love her, no, she’s had many rejections. She did approach her pre-screen as an audition though, and came out ahead. I realize that each teacher has their own preferences, just as a performance can have conflicting reviews. I imagine that each panel member listens and watches for what draws them in, technique, good/bad habits, maturity, tone, language, expression, and appearance, as well as what voice will fit into their existing program and studio. At least this is what I hope (in my naivety), because sometimes it feels like it just doesnt make much sense. </p>
<p>I have friends with Ds auditioning MT 900+ applicants for 20 (or less) spots, talk about insanity! All they get to sing are 16 bars, and dance in groups of 25, at least weve got undivided attention for an average of two full songs. </p>
<p>I think I’ve read all that I could read, networked and spoken to parents and professionals, as well as provided her with numerous teachers and varied vocal experiences. This is (hopefully) the first step towards a career that is full of competitions and auditions, and limited contracts, nothing is guaranteed. My hope is that she continues to develop a thick skin, and although I will always be there to hold a coat, drive, and pay a bill (limited), I realize that she will eventually be responsible for doing this on her own one day. She will determine the direction of her career. Hopefully her undergraduate program will provide the educational foundation that will drive, develop and guide her passions.</p>
<p>“It’s a very self-selecting field”.
Gosh I wish this was true. But with shrinking opportunities and and exponentially expanding singer base., this might still be a little more true for male singers, but for young women…not so much. I mean, you do choose to persevere, you do choose to go on to grad school, you do choose to audition for low paying YAPS, but self selecting as far as getting good professional roles and supporting yourself through performance only? Perhaps I am taking this out of context?</p>
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<p>Lol, musicamusica. Either that, or I said it wrong. ;)</p>
<p>I MEANT the opposite of what you perceived. Aspiring singers have very little control. Luck, God-given talent, and good training drive this cart.</p>
<p>The Field is self-selecting because all of these aspiring young singers will ultimately end up where they best fit, for the most part, in accordance with the laws of The Field. If you audition for (fill-in-the-blank) and don’t get in, it’s likely that you don’t belong there. In fact, according to the panel that was given the authority to accept or reject you, you Don’t belong there! They may think you’re a close second. But you weren’t their first.</p>
<p>It’s not totally fatalistic. There are always exceptions. There are ways to alter your course and try, try again. But the performance field is self-selecting in that all aspiring VP candidates will enter the wide end of the funnel, proceed through numerous gates, and in the end, only a few will emerge from the skinny end of the funnel as totally self-supporting, full-time, big-draw opera or concert singers. </p>
<p>The gates along the way (undergrad, grad, summer programs, gigs, YAPs, etc) will give clues as to your ultimate success. But it’s not over until its over and The Field will do the selecting, often placing you right where you best fit in terms of talent, training, and even luck. And there’s not a whole lot each individual singer can do about it. </p>
<p>A Juan Diego Florez won’t end up singing for weddings and funerals. And someone who was rejected by numerous grad schools likely won’t end up at the Met.</p>
<p>Ok…I think self selecting in regards to the student is possibly the wrong term. Any field where you find yourself constantly auditioning could hardly be called that. While someone who was rejected by “numerous grad schools” may not end up at the Met, there is a vast army of really good MM grads from sterling teachers and institutions who do end up singing for weddings and funerals. There are just more singers than there are performance opportunities. Along the way you will encountered more and more absolutely fantastic singers(MONCA finalists and winners included) who find themselves exactly in this sort of straights. The process is not as predictable, reasonable, sequential or even as logical as one expects. No particular school or teacher is a golden ticket and that funnel leaks out a tremendous amount of talent.
“If you audition for fill-in-the-blank” and do not get in, there is also the very likely chance that there were more than 1200 applicants vying for the same role, and I would contend that more than one of them were pretty damn good. I am not saying this to discourage, but to point out that the numerical reality will frequently trump talent and hard work.</p>
<p>^I have no argument with what youve said and certainly didn’t intend to put down one job or type of singer over another. I said the field was self-selecting, not the student. My point is that all will be sorted by the process and will find themselves in the category in which they best fit, for the most part. So all can relax as they make their way through the process – if they’re the philosophical type that can do that. I also totally agree that reality – and luck – can and will trump talent. No argument there. You’ve apparently never heard the term used that way before, but I swear I didn’t invent it. ;)</p>
<p>In my experience, the term self-selecting is used to describe the phenomenon in which people are weeded out and sorted along the way by the process. Meaning that the individual does not control the process and the ‘right’ people end up with their ‘right,’ best fit. The process itself makes the determination.</p>
<p>There are some who describe undergraduate admissions as self-selecting. ‘Everybody’ wants to go to an Ivy League (for argument’s sake), but instead everybody ends up where they best fit – and ultimately end up happier for it, and each school and its members are better off for it. </p>
<p>In some lines of work, there are certain super strong character traits, which may even appear unrelated to the job, which make people very good at what they do for a living. The people who hire for these lines of work WANT those traits in their employees. But, in some lines of work, employers don’t have to specifically look for those traits, per se. The process is self-selecting. If you get to the position that you can even make it to an interview for that job, you will very likely have those traits. That’s exactly what I meant by the term self-selecting.</p>
<p>When I said ‘rejected by numerous grad schools,’ I meant to imply that they never became MM students – because all their schools rejected them. It was not a put down of people who are wedding singers, or people who don’t go to grad school, or people who do. Rather, it was an attempt to describe the phenomenon by citing a category other than, say, concert soloist, when naming ‘levels.’. It was off the top of my head and not designed to hold up to thesis-level scrutiny, lol. There are also musicians who never go to grad school because they’re so brilliantly talented that they can start their careers without grad school. My point was that the process will ultimately place all candidates where they best fit, in general, and most will be better off for it, even if its not what they initially set out to do. So all can relax. Phew.</p>
<p>Uh, yeah, strangely enough I have heard the term self- selecting before.I understood your comment to be in regards to the singers career. That’s why I questioned the context. And no —I never looked at what you said as a put down.(besides the aforementioned crack at my intellect.)
I am just pointing out that there has been a quantum shift in performance and education opportunities vs the amount of talented students. The OP wonders why her talented student was turned down by some prescreens. The shear numbers of students are in fact an issue.
And RE the wedding singer comment---- JD Florez left Curtis over twenty years ago. Since then the amount of students has exploded and several YAP programs have contracted and regional opera houses have closed. So yes…you are going to find some remarkable talent left out of the process without a lot of options (aka wedding singers)</p>