Want diversity w/o Affirmative Action? Don't rely on the SAT

Parents Forum
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<p>Epiphany, </p>

<p>Could your response to fab have dripped more with condescension?</p>

<p>"Fab,
........ It's very tiresome the way you keep bringing up selective quotes from MLK to support your own viewpoint. It's actually kind of non-contextual. You'll be taking college-level history courses any moment now, so it's really important to understand this. It's something which afflicts many people, including some adults way beyond grad school, but esp. often students between ages say 16 and 22. It is the matter of historical perspective. ....."</p>

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<p>curious14,</p>

<p>I agree that if colleges ditched the SATs, then they would most likely switch to a system like the one currently practiced by Texas. As you note, not all schools are created equally. Though most counselors are asked to submit school profiles in their recommendations, these profiles obviously don’t tell the whole story. For example, my school is proud of the following statistic:</p>

<p>Average SAT score for Class of 2006 – 1200
Average SAT score for the Class of 2007 – 1500</p>

<p>It seems like my graduating class did a lot better than the previous one. My school did not mention that we used the New SAT, which is out of 2400, while the Class of 2006 used the Old SAT, which out of 1600. Of course, I expect admissions officers to see this. It’s just an example.</p>

<p>I just College Board searched for Texas-Austin, and I saw that though a top 10% rank makes an SAT score unnecessary for admission, the school still has a 10:1 white/black ratio. (They also have a near 1:1 Asian/Hispanic ratio.) I thus agree with you that “it is not clear that minority acceptances, absent preferences, would be any better.”</p>

<p>Nevertheless, I view myself as one who is open to compromises. I support a policy that removes the SAT and also removes racial preferences. It seems like both parties are happy. The pro-“diversity” crowd sees the end of a “culturally biased” test. The pro-equal treatment crowd sees the end of racial preferences.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
If a dream is ever to become a reality at some point you have to start living as if it were a reality.

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</p>

<p>I agree.</p>

<p>In my summer class a few weeks ago, I overheard a conversation between two students that I found to be very heartening.</p>

<p>Student A was describing who she normally studied with to Student B. Student B asked, “Who is Student C?” Student A responded, “Oh, she’s the girl who sits on the second row from the left.” Student A did not say, “Oh, she’s the black girl who sits on the second row from the left.” She just said ‘girl.’ If we think about it, there’s no point to preface ‘girl’ or ‘boy’ with the race. To pinpoint the student, only the location is necessary. Student A said “…girl who sits on the second row from the left.” That is all that mattered.</p>

<p>We don’t need to categorize everyone by race. It’s done far more harm than good. I do not understand why people want to continue using this factor when it was responsible for slavery, segregation, Jim Crow, the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1881, the Gentlemen’s Agreement, expelling Chicanos who were American nationals, Japanese internment camps, and many more shameful stains.</p>

<p>
[quote]
In their hubris the folks running our elite schools think they shape our society when in fact all they do is reflect it - both the good and the bad.

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</p>

<p>Very well written and couldn’t be more true, unfortunately.</p>

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<p>Before standardized testing elite colleges depended on feeder "prep" schools to provide students. They were ok with this because they knew the schools and were confident that they understood what grades from these schools meant. The introduction of the SAT's was a tremendous step forwar in openig the system up to students who lacked this largely elitist background. Frankly, maintaining that element of meritocracy is far more important to me than cow towing to the forces of racial preference.</p>

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<p>"If we think about it, there’s no point to preface ‘girl’ or ‘boy’ with the race. To pinpoint the student, only the location is necessary. Student A said “…girl who sits on the second row from the left.” That is all that mattered."</p>

<p>People who preface girl or boy with a physical description are not necessarily making a point about their race. Their just trying to get a point across. People call me "the blonde woman" so should I be offended? If someone said, "that woman who was sitting in the third row, second chair" it would be totally useless! Usually people will ask, "what does he look like" if they're trying to <em>place</em> someone.</p>

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<p>It was not condescending, curious. Your posts, however, often are, in the way you talk to me and to Drosselmeier. The problem of historical context is one which not only affects & invades AA discussions on CC, it does so in general with regard to other topics, some of which are also discussed on CC. There are disciplined and nondisciplined ways to apply & relate situations from different eras. Drosselmeier has stated this more pointedly than I have to fabrizio, and often, including calling him "son" -- but again, you merely refuse to do your homework, taking the lazy way out by making unsupported sweeping statements about posters, AND about MLK. Drosselmeier and fabrizio and I go back quite awhile about this topic, on other threads and other fora. Some of the comments made on this thread need to be seen in that light.</p>

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<p>Epiphany,</p>

<p>I'll let the other readers be the judge.</p>

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<p>epiphany - I agree with you about historical context and MLK probably was pro AA however that is not what he successfully sold to his fellow Americans. He sold the Dream in the same way that Thomas Jeffersin sold the the "All men are created equal" business and not his own conflicted lifestyle. Had MLK emphasised AA in his big speeches instead of our shared common humanity and citizenship the votes would never have been mustered to anyone out of the schoolhouse door.</p>

<p>If curious14 is unaware of the full context of King's thinking it is because when we create public icons that embody our ideals we leave the seemy stuff out - the seemy stuff being the ends justify the means in righting a grave wrong.</p>

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<p>Just a qualification to your paragraph One, higherlead. The media (and sometimes a "celebrity's" own "handlers" -- although I'm not sure that this was true in MLK's case) often hammer the same message home time & again, as if the public has defective memories. I just think it's up to all of us when we claim that so-and-so from the past would have supported some current view we have in the present, that we study the full range of that person's opinions, if those are available. (It's more an individual's responsibility than the media's responsibility, but the latter can be annoying & can obscure the message -- which may be messages, plural.)</p>

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<p>I'm not surprised that none of the defenders of racial preferences have addressed Collegeallums obsevation. Isn't it possible that even if racial preferences (Affirmative Action) could have been justified in the 60's circumstances have now changed sufficiently that it is no longer neccessary. If not when and under what circumstances do you think it would be possible to abandon racial preferences in college admissions, employment and government contracting.</p>

171

<p>What is it about Asian history and culture that makes some Asian Americans so resentful --downright bitter--about AA for African Americans? I don't see this resentment from other groups but hey--Borat showed me that some Americans are perfectly happy to sell guns to kill Jews. Maybe I know nothing.</p>

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<p>I had not noticed that Asians were particularly bitter. I have noticed that the Asian culture seems to value education and that Asian students are often encouraged to work very hard. In return for this hard work I think they deserve to be treated fairly. A degree of bitterness would be understandable but I haven't noticed it. </p>

<p>I have not personally observed it but I am told that there is a fair amount of resentment in the African American community toward Asians. I don't know if it's true, but if it's true I am mystified at the cause.</p>

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<p>As a African American male I feel as vice versa is true. Asians are resentment of the African American community. I would coincide this is from my limited perspective of [BOLD]my world[/BOLD]. When I interact with Asians (Most notably) I feel and sense a integrated culture of racism in this country.</p>

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<p>But since I'm on CC; most are delusional. AA is still need to undermined old white money networks especially in the political arena (i.e. governmental contracts and economic development). I'm vexed for those who say or imply things are equal for races. Please, step in my shoes and tell me the public education that I receive was equal to what an average what a white student in my city receives. Why is the high school I go to is seen as the ghetto high school? Some of you guys are fooling yourselves and I don't see any of else really benefiting from Affirmative Action....</p>

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<p>
[quote]

What is it about Asian history and culture that makes some Asian Americans so resentful --downright bitter--about AA for African Americans? I don't see this resentment from other groups but hey--Borat showed me that some Americans are perfectly happy to sell guns to kill Jews. Maybe I know nothing.

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<p>cheers,</p>

<p>Ah, your latent biases against Asians have finally come out.</p>

<p>First, what is “Asian history and culture?” It strikes me as odd that an entrenched champion of “inclusion” and “diversity” such as yourself would group hundreds of different ethnicities under one nebulous banner and assume that “one size fits all.” Whatever happened to “multiculturalism,” cheers?</p>

<p>I am neither “resentful” nor “bitter” about affirmative action for blacks. I believe in affirmative action – a policy that treats all without regard to race - for everyone. I do not believe in racial preference, and I certainly do not support the draconian racial preference you support (viz. deducting SAT points from Asians and adding SAT points to blacks, a perversion and misunderstanding of Espenshade and Chung’s 2005 results.)</p>

<p>I find it laughable that you point the finger at Asians and blame them for being the only group that is both “resentful” and “downright bitter” about affirmative action for blacks.</p>

<p>Who sued the Regents of the University of California and accused it of having an unconstitutional medical school admissions policy? Was it an angry Asian American male? No, it was Alan Bakke.</p>

<p>Who spearheaded the California, Washington, and Michigan civil rights initiatives that are destroying your beloved vehicle for redemption state by state? Was it a “resentful” Asian American? No, it was Mr. Ward Connerly.</p>

<p>Who sued the University of Michigan and accused it of having an unconstitutional undergraduate admissions policy? Was it a “downright bitter” Asian American? No, it was Ms. Jennifer Gratz.</p>

<p>Who were the parents who sued the Seattle School District #1 for violating the Civil Rights Act of 1964? Was it a bunch of disgruntled, racist, biased, anti-black Asian American parents? No, it was a coalition of mostly white parents.</p>

<p>Think twice before you show your anti-Asian biases.</p>

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<p>Fab,</p>

<p>You forgot Jian Li v. Princeton.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
when and under what circumstances do you think it would be possible to abandon racial preferences in college admissions, employment and government contracting.

[/quote]

The debate continues, but this question has never been answered as far as I know. I would also like to know when the payback has been enough. The four generations of my family born in this country have not contributed to slavery or to discrimination against blacks (they have, however, struggled against their own discrimination, poverty and lack of education...but hey, who cares about that?) I ask this sincerely...how many more generations will have to pay for past sins? When will it ever be "enough"?</p>

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<p>Please, can some one pull up some statistics on how AA make one "pay for past sins?" Cause it don't make sense to me....</p>

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<p>Oiram, I've never bought the argument that the purpose of AA is "payback." I know this is brought up sometimes on CC (both from pro- and anti-AA folks), but that is not what I hear admissions officers say. (In case any poster here wishes to pretend that I am inauthentically posing as an authority or an "expert"; I take my information directly from admissions departments of elite U's, and their agents, and written material from such people. I've never made it up and then declared myself "an expert.")</p>

<p>I've never heard from any admissions Source that AA is punishment-driven. </p>

<p>But I wanted to post something else about drawing on many information sources other than past historical figures, when looking at AA <em>today</em>. I'm watching right now a really interesting program on CSpan 2 (Book-TV), a channel which I often watch. Tonight's program is a panel at the Harlem Book Festival, a panel composed only of black intellectuals, addressing some very interesting & timely discussion topics. The title of tonight's panel is "the Politics of African-American Identity today."</p>

<p>Bottom line: Race and culture, both, are complex. And both relate to class. The implications are complex, including how these relate to AA in the modern era. I don't necessarily agree with every statement made this evening (which is not about AA, but about cultural identity, & its dynamic vis-a-vis the power structure), but as part of the majority (and thus one connected with the "power structure") it's important for me to listen to all minorities, from their perspective -- not just what their perspectives were in 1967. That is even more true for those involved in education or discussing education. </p>

<p>So I just encourage students & parents who are moderately or passionately interested in the topic of AA, to become as literate as possible about the elements that contribute to the very impulse toward AA.</p>

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<p>curious14 requests evidence for some statements:</p>

<p>
[quote]
blacks and other minorities lose more admissions places than they gain (or to put it differently, whites gain a net admissions advantage that exceeds the number of slots lost to AA) because the natural number of equally-qualified URM applicants is reduced by societal disadvantages of the minorities. Those potential applicants that would exist in a hypothetical racially equalized United States are incarcerated, or in terrible schools, etc.

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</p>

<p>This one follows from comparison of Espenshade and Chung's calculation (2 percent smaller white population at elite schools due to AA) with Sybbie's numbers above (URM enrollment at such schools is 12 to 15 percent lower than its share of applicant-age population). If the statistical profile of income, educational opportunities, assets, geographic location, parental education, health, etc were equal between (but not necessarily within) races, this would produce much higher rates of application and qualification for university admission from the URM populations. Even allowing for some differences in motivation or other "cultural" factors between groups, under whatever assumptions you like, this would increase URM enrollment (under a level admissions field with no group preferences as calculated in E&C study) by far more than 2 percent. This means that whites are competing for a larger number of spots than would effectively be available in a hypothetical race-equalized society. </p>

<p>In other words, the white complaint about AA is not that they want an unfair disadvantage to their admission removed, it's that they would like an existing advantage to be enlarged.</p>

<p>
[quote]
If one were to equalize not races but the educational opportunities for individuals --- if most of US population would have access to comparable quality of schooling, libraries, books, tutors, summer school, and so on --- the current college matriculant demographic would be the losers, in that their rate of admission would drop greatly as more competitors were added to the pool.

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</p>

<p>This one is self-evident. If good schools, good conditions, and money suddenly appeared in educationally backward parts of the United States, one assumes that a large number of new applicants would be dumped onto the market. This reduces everyone's chances of admissions. Relative to the current situation the winners would be the new applicants (whose current chances are 0.00 percent, as they don't apply or don't have the qualifications) , and the losers would be everyone else (the current matriculants, whose privilege of competing against an artificially reduced pool would be eliminated).</p>