<p>Alright I’m naive. But I also don’t need to be attacked for this. I’m sorry to be so mistaken but I’d really prefer not to be further victimized in the thread where I explicitly stated I might be disagreed with, but was just wanting to emphasize the need of some awareness for why we need better ways of handling sexual harassment and assault in our schools. We all have our biases, just like this bad new legislation. Please debate it rather than the hopeful views of someone who is sick of being in a state of hopelessness. Not trolling, just putting too extremes out there.</p>
<p>It is absurd legislation. It basically makes rape accusation like witchery accusation back in Salem.</p>
<p>sorry if you felt attacked belle… but the flip side for you …please do not be lulled into a false sense of security for yourself when at college…just because a person appears to be a “nice person” </p>
<p>i believe my son was raised “right” and has a good reputation but would never think he couldnt be falsely accused of something…</p>
<p>
So true. They say Ted Bundy was reportedly a very “nice person” too, until he decided to kill you.</p>
<p>I don’t see why colleges should not apply the same standard as any other person in the US who is accused of violating a law. A student can have his life ruined if an unstable and/or vengeful female makes an unfounded accusation. To think this never happens is extremely naive.</p>
<p>JW, many schools use the “clear and convincing” standard (it is highly probable or reasonably certain that the sexual harassment or violence occurred). This is a lower standard than “beyond a reasonable doubt”. I can’t think of anything worse than going through this process, being exonerated and then having to go through it again because the alleged victim appeals the case to another authority.</p>
<p>“It seems to me that colleges have already applied their own standards arbitrarily, and have (or the data seem to say) tens of thousands of young women at risk from nice young college rapist men.”</p>
<p>Mini, I am in awe of this statement. If there are others who also believe this, I can see why so many people are alarmed by this assault on the rights of college students to defend themselves from people who have similar thoughts as you.</p>
<p>parent57, we have been through this entire subject before, with a slightly different twist in that it addressed the issue of consent, particularly when drunk. There were a number of posters who were willing to maintain that if two students were equally drunk, and had sex, that the male student was necessarily a rapist because the female student could not give consent if drunk. This was held to be true even if NEITHER of them could remember the event, and possibly even if she thought she did give consent. One poster was driven to ask–ironically, one would assume–“If two males students get drunk and have sex, did they rape each other?”</p>
<p>It seems clear that there are plenty of genuine sexual assaults that go unreported, which is a very bad thing. But it would be naive to assume that every event that IS reported is genuine. It is also monumentally naive to assume that only bad people are accused of crimes.</p>
<p>What I find particularly disturbing about this is the idea that the colleges should not allow the accused to ask questions of the accuser in their own defense.</p>
<p>
Friends and family of Altemio Sanchez were shocked when he was arrested. Here is a regular guy, married, working, modest suburban home, raised 2 kids, involved at his church. Yet he murdered at least 3 women, raped 2 of them and at least 14 others over his 25 years as the Bike Path Rapist. Sometimes the monsters among us really DO look just like regular nice guys. </p>
<p>And the guy who served 22 years in prison for 2 of the Sanchez rapes might have been a bit schizophrenic, but he didn’t deserve the life he got. His mother never gave up on his ultimately being exonerated. What would you say to her?</p>
<p>“These charges can include…staring…” </p>
<p>Say what???</p>
<p>I really can’t believe this thread.</p>
<p>It is almost impossible to convict someone of rape beyond a reasonable doubt in a date rape situation. Is that really the standard of proof you want a college to be held to in disciplining a male student who probably did rape one or more women? </p>
<p>Do you really think it’s fair that if everyone thinks that he probably did rape a female student, that she has to quit school or continue to walk across campus knowing she may run into him, and maybe even have to sit in the same classroom, live in the same dorm, maybe even use the same co-ed bathroom? </p>
<p>Yes, some young men are wrongly accused. But many more young men rape women and get away with it. On every college campus, there are repeat offenders, young men who are known for being sexual predators.</p>
<p>I forget the exact statistic, but the vast majority of female college students who are raped are freshmen. The vast majority of the rapists are juniors and seniors, and the majority are seniors. This is not a co-incidence. In part, the freshman girls are naive, in part they are more likely to drink to excess, in part they haven’t been on campus long enough to learn the reputations some of these young men have. </p>
<p>I’m not denying the fact that some young men are wrongly accused. Being falsely accused is really a horrible situation. But there are a lot more young men who really have raped young women and gotten away with it. The fact that they were not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt doesn’t mean that they didn’t devastate the lives of their victims.</p>
<p>I think it’s ABSURD to suggest that the standard of proof for suspending a young man from school has to be the same as that for convicting him of the felony of rape and imprisoning him for it.</p>
<p>as a woman i find myself conflicted by this thread… but my over riding concern is as a mother of a son…(as i am sure would be the mother of a daughter) probably no answer to this situation…it is good to have guidelines but i still worry about the process</p>
<p>
The problem is that what makes “everyone think” a certain way may have nothing to do with what really happened.</p>
<p>I can agree with jonri if in fact there’s evidence that wouldn’t be acceptable in court because of some technicality but proves the rape if it were admissible, but if it’s purely a “he said/she said” situation, it’s wrong to just accept the victim’s side of the story.</p>
<p>Schmaltz, believe it or not, most college handbooks have staring as a form of sexual harassment, for which the student can be punished. For example, it can be described as eye contact that is intimidating, ogling or staring at body parts. There is a case of a male student in the Midwest who was expelled from the school and criminally prosecuted for staring. I actually saw the newspaper article, but I can’t seem to find it now. I will keep looking for it and will post the link when I find it.</p>
<p>I wish everyone would stop saying that the standard used to adjudicate sexual harassment cases on college campuses is “beyond a reasonable doubt”. As I said previously, the standard used prior to these new rules imposed by the OCR is “clear and convincing”. If you have a problem with this standard, then you really don’t care about the rights of a person who has to defend himself from false charges of sexual harassment or rape.</p>
<p>If my post was unclear, I mean everyone who heard the evidence at a college conducted hearing, not the “buzz” on campus.</p>
<p>Since there often are hazy ideas of charges/drunkenness/what happened, he said/she said, the biases about reputation of males vs. females etc., I think it should be decided on FACTS. Everything should be on the up and up, I prefer the legal system/police over some unclear policies at a college. I think both parties deserve equal protection. It is REALLY hard to know about these cases (unless witnesses, evidence, of course).
For example, I was told by a friend about the male friend of her son whose life was made he** by a girl (at a CA public university some yrs ago) - it was not rape, but he turned her attentions down - as the story goes - she made some claim to dorm authorities - HE had to move dorms and felt completely harrassed. The girl (who was never named or identified to me) appeared to be a nut from the story. He was deeply religious and this was a horrible experience. I don’t think there was any corroborating evidence or witnesses to whatever claim the girl made (as I said, it certainly wasn’t up to the level of rape) yet this illustrates the weird stories out there.
Since we usually DON’T know what happened, we need to keep the process as evenhanded as possible.</p>
<h1>53</h1>
<p>Any kid who is behaving like a halfway civilized kid will never have to defend himself. If you are worried about your kids, teach them to behave.</p>
<p>The Duke lacrosse team hired hookers to entertain them. They didn’t rape the accuser (maybe) but it isn’t good behavior for college kids to hire hookers.</p>
<p>I think they were strippers.</p>
<p>Sent via carrier pigeon.</p>
<p>^^^ see that is what conflicts me… without sounding accusatory… my son may be well behaved, may not have done anything…however a “crazy” girl can accuse him of anything. how can anyone say that a kid wont have to defend himself…there are 2 people in these scenarios… I dont worry that my son might do drugs, steal, get drunk, or treat a girl inappropriately etc… but i have no control over what a girl will do or say, nor do i have any control over her upbringing.</p>
<p>I guess there are some types of staring behavior that could be considered threatening but if some men are sitting in the student lounge and a pretty girl in a short skirt and a tight fitting sweater walks by we really can not help but take a good long look. Men and boys who simply look and enjoy the quietly enjoy the view without taking any actions that would harm the girl in any way should not be punished for doing what millions of years of evolution has programmed them to do.</p>
<p>parent 57, that doesn’t happen - you are letting your fears interfere with your critical thinking. If your kid doesn’t hang out with bad people and behaves (that includes not rudely staring - and hopefully he has a father who is a good role model) nobody will accuse them.</p>