Warning For All College Men

<p>:)gracias, limabeans</p>

<p>Oh thanks performersmom (post 116). I thought the viewpoints were not informal/casual, but I forgot how to spell it.</p>

<p>“For far too long guys have been raping drunk girls and getting away with it.”</p>

<p>I love how people can throw out statements like this with no evidence to back it up. I know lots of guys and I can say with equal assurance the above statement is a lot of crock. I had to look it up but I think the word for someone who believes this stuff is “misandry”.</p>

<p>I cannot tell you the number of women I know my age who were raped in college, either by other students, or professors. None of them went to court and the men were never held accountable. </p>

<p>If there were no evidence of this, why would practically every college make sexual harassment a big part of their orientation for new students?</p>

<p>I didn’t say it doesn’t happen; I just don’t believe it’s of epidemic proportions. I also think when two people have sex while drunk, it is a lot more complicated than a whole bunch of girls getting raped by guys.</p>

<p>Again, what is factually wrong with #120? You must believe it is wrong if you’re requiring evidence to back it up. The poster never said all guys, or the majority of guys.</p>

<p>Teriwtt, that’s a fair question. Let me answer it by quoting another statement in #120:</p>

<p>“Because these girls are passed out or very drunk and can not defend themselves the guys do what they want.”</p>

<p>When you have two people who have had enough alcohol to be in the situation as described by the poster - to say that the guy raped the girl, although I am sure it can be true, I think, however, in many of the cases to which the poster refers, the guy and girl probably have two different versions of what happened and the girl’s version is not always the correct one.</p>

<p>Okay after this I promise to shut up!</p>

<p>I don’t have a daughter, I have nieces I adore but I am the mother of one son. I can’t truly address the fear of sending my daughter out into the world. If you don’t have a son you can’t address the tear and frustration of having your child be labeled a potential rapist because he was crass enough to stare a little too long at a girl he finds attractive. Or the worry about him making the colossal mistake of drinking too much at a party and compounding that mistake by participating in a drunken hook up and being the only one of the pair held accountable in a legal sense. His father and I have had numerous conversations with him about personal responsibility and drinking to excess. But stupidty happens. He has a great reputation, he is a good guy. After telling off a friend who pushed a girl, he cut off all contact with that friend. He has seen girls slap and shove their boyfriends without the guy retaliating and no longer has anything to do with those girls. We expect him to be the guy who stands up for the person in danger. He expects it of himself. I suspect he is not in the minority. He is (in this mom’s biased opinion) a nice looking clean cut young man; the long haired scruffy guy with the earring, or the beefy football player, or cocky seeming lacrosse player is likely to be an equally good guy. Please don’t think the majority of guys are potential rapists that are undeserving of due process and all women are potential victims. Please teach your daughters to be cautious, I want my son to be careful also. Personal responsibility is important for both genders and NO I don’t think the girl who is dressed in the short skirt, skimpy top etc…is bringing it on herself! I just think excessive alcohol = bad decisions. I also think giving your trust to someone you’ve just met is risky, for both genders.</p>

<p>I read a great book several years ago, “The Gift of Fear” by Gavin DeBecker. I think it is an excellent book for all woman and a very important read for young woman on their own for the first time. The book teaches women to trust the little voice inside their head and gives them “permission” to noy be so “nice” at the risk of their own safety. I highly reccomend it. </p>

<p>I plan to continue the conversations with my son regarding all of this. I feel my main responsibilty as a mother was to raise a good human being. I imagine I am in the majority.</p>

<p>Anothercrazymom, love yor post. I have both and understand completely. My DS is starting as a freshman in college. We have told him stories of innocent boys who have gotten in trouble. I think that intensifies if you are a minority, so we have warned him about being extra careful.</p>

<p>Our DD is a junior in high school. I am going to have many sleepless nights when she goes away to college. I think I will have to buy that book that was mentioned as a present.</p>

<p>so well said acm… you have articulated what i felt too.</p>

<p>My son is well brought up, intelligent, and extremely caring. He is the guy the “heartsick” girls go to…he’s often the shoulder they cry on when they break up with their boyfriends. He is the kid that drives 7 hours just to sit by the grave of a friend that died. on each anniversary of that death for the past 4 years.</p>

<p>and so as a mother it worries me, that he is seen as a potential rapist in such broad sweeping statements</p>

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Well, if you really thought the accusation was wholly false, you’d want her out of the dorm, not him.</p>

<p>Look, I suspect that we all believe that there are at least some cases of actual rape that are ignored and mishandled by colleges, and at least some false or unfair accusations that are also mishandled to the detriment of the accused. So how do you create a fair balance in your procedures? As I stated above, I think the way we do it in the criminal system is about as good as you can do, although it’s far from perfect. We have a historical revulsion for punishing innocent people, and that shouldn’t be pushed to the side when the accused crime is a serious one. To me, that’s what you are doing when you are asking colleges to impose really significant punishments in cases that would not be able to get convictions in the criminal system.</p>

<p>I am a former OCR investigator and manager. OCR’s standard for sexual harassment involving students is severe, persistent, and pervasive. Sexual harassment is extremely hard to prove. The issue here is that many college disciplinary systems were/are structured to over protect the rights of the alleged harasser and under protect the rights of the alleged victim. Many of them allowed the alleged harasser to appeal if he/she was found to have violated the student judicial code, which is usually administered by the Dean of Students, but didn’t give the alleged victim the same right. Preponderance of evidence is the standard that OCR uses in its own investigations and even though it is not an especially high standard it is very difficult to achieve. Standards used by the police and prosecutors are different than those used in civil matters. So while a person might not be “guilty” under a criminal statute they still might have created a hostile educational environment on the basis of sex by their actions and hence need to be disciplined under a college’s judicial code. This is one of the issues that the guidance is addressing. Remember Title IX covers discrimination on the basis of sex in a university’s educational programs or activities. If the harassment is not based on sex, say it is simply because the alleged harasser doesn’t like the person or they came from competing high schools, regardless of whether the two individuals are of different genders it is not a violation of Title IX although it would probably be a violation of the student judicial code. </p>

<p>The April letter is just that a letter. It is not legislation, and it does not have the force of law. If OCR had issued the letter as a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking and then solicited comments and then issued it in the Code of Federal Regulations as a regulation implementing Title IX it would have had the force of law. A letter is simply a letter although I can tell you it has created a stir in the college community. Many schools are re-examining their policies and hopefully changing them for the better.</p>

<p>The OCR guidance is not a message to young men. It is a message to colleges and universities who receive financial assistance from the Federal government that they need to closely examine their administrative procedures, and where necessary fix them, so that they do not discriminate in their educational programs and activities on the basis of sex.</p>

<p>anothercrazymom, your post states the fears of parents very well. I have both a boy & a girl, and as fearful as I was of sending my sheltered, somewhat naive daughter off to a huge urban college where evil boys would be waiting for the right opportunity to take advantage of her, after reading this thread, I am just as fearful that my son is going out into a college world where there seems to be an environment reminiscent of Salem, MA.</p>

<p>As much as I discussed with my d the potential dangers that lurk in the world, I was always careful to make sure she didn’t go out there with the idea that boys are the enemy. I don’t want my son going out in the world with the idea that every girl is a potential threat to him either. What a way to live.</p>

<p>Both girls and boys need to be careful, more careful than they ever realize. And I’m sure this will get me in trouble here, but I’m going to say it anyway. Rape is horrible, and seeing a rapist get away with it is absolutely horrendous, but to me, being falsely accused of doing something so incredibly horrible is the worst possible scenario.</p>

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This seems, on its face, to make sense, but I don’t think it really makes much sense when you are adjudicating a specific incident of allegedly unwanted sex. That kind of case is, in my view, inherently criminal in nature, and not civil. It is not really a “hostile environment” or “discrimination” case. So I have no particular problem using the preponderance of the evidence test if the issue is whether, say, sexist chants by frat boys created a hostile environment, but it is a very different matter if you are going to use that standard to determine whether Accuser consented to sex with Accused after a party they attended. Again, it seems to me that the latter is circumventing the criminal system to impose individual punishment when no criminal case could likely be made.</p>

<p>“Mini, I am in awe of this statement. If there are others who also believe this, I can see why so many people are alarmed by this assault on the rights of college students to defend themselves from people who have similar thoughts as you.”</p>

<p>You can check the data yourself. Then you can come back and we can have a serious conversation.</p>

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<p>^^ That was my interpretation also and I agree with the examples you used.</p>

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<p>I also agree with this.</p>

<p>Remember OJ? Innocent in criminal court; “guilty” that is a huge judgment in the civil courts. Happens all the time. Criminal standards are much higher than civil. Student judicial codes, as OCR has pointed out, are substantially different than criminal and colleges have an obligation to move using their own codes to determine if one student denies another student an equal educational opportunity on the basis of sex. There is nothing to say that the alleged harasser cannot have the right to appeal only that the alleged victim has to have the same right.</p>

<p>There should be a lull in this thread while everyone rereads tsdad’s post. </p>

<p>All this is heartfelt. Of course, we worry. Of course we and our children can’t control everything that happens to us in life. I have daughters, but my own mother was raped in college and did not report it to police or college. She was not drunk, was with a well-respected older person, during daylight hours and in an area with plenty of people around. Her fears for me magnifed as I looked at colleges.</p>

<p>-One poster says “For far too long guys have been raping drunk girls and getting away with it.”
-Another responds with: * I love how people can throw out statements like this with no evidence to back it up. *</p>

<p>Whether you believe them or not, whether you think some studies come up with exaggerated results- or whether you put you own spin on it- these things happen. </p>

<p>A few times, posters have expressed fears that sons would be accused because, just to use the recent words, “labeled a potential rapist because he was crass enough to stare a little too long at a girl he finds attractive.”</p>

<p>This is not my read of the OCR letter at all. Not at all. Colleges may include unwanted staring in the broad list of things that can contribute to sexual harassment- it’s akin to saying, if you are drunk, you might stumble. No one said, if you stumble you are a potential drunk. </p>

<p>Hunt said, “the way we do it in the criminal system is about as good as you can do” (and I mostly agree- except that the judicial system isn’t always accurate.) But, the DCL refers to what colleges must do. And, colleges must respond- and must respond whether or not police are brought in.</p>

<p>It may help to think of this: is if your hs son (say, at camp) were being bullied by another boy- some of it might be low level (an occasional crack or taunt) but some could escalate to physical- if he were being cornered, perhaps shoved- if it got to the point where he changed his activities, changed his path from A to B, lived in fear, perhaps more, would you simply say, it’s a police matter? Or would you expect the closest “authorities” to take action, as well? Would you want your son to be moved from his friends? Or, perhaps have the offender moved, while things were examined?</p>

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I agree with this. But I think it’s nonsense to use this terminology in evaluating a specific event involving an allegation of unwanted sex. As is often the case, the problem is with treating different things as if they are the same kind of thing by stretching the terminology.</p>

<p>In the past, this kind of circumvention has been used for righteous purposes–thus, people were prosecuted for violating the civil rights of murder victims, when state courts were unable to get murder convictions for racist reasons. But I think what’s happening here is frustration that rape cases are so hard to prove in the criminal courts, because of the complication of the possibility of consent, that the idea is to use this supposedly civil procedure to punish the perpetrators under a more lenient proof standard. I just think that’s a big mistake.</p>

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People don’t get on the sex offender registry unless a case goes to the courts, do they? And “a charge” gets you on the list? Even without a conviction?</p>