"That is likely why we were at the state of (applicant option between) SAT and ACT being used by almost every selective college and trying to be a little of everything in terms of various colleges’ testing goals, but not really satisfying to any.:
It’s just the math section and maybe math 2 subject tests that some of these colleges can’t really use for admissions. I think most selective colleges are fine with the CR section (and Writing when it was around).
DS sounds very similar to your son. He went to a competitive middle school that had the AMCs/AIME but when he came back to the local public HS there was no one that had done it or heard of it.
He took AP Calc BC in 9th and asked his teacher if he would proctor the exam(s) and he agreed. I paid for the minimum amount (10 tests I think) and told him to try to get others to take the extra tests for free. He worked pretty hard to try and get kids to do it but there were only a few takers (probably did not help that he was a freshman). He sent emails to the 2 or 3 that did sign up and told them how to find old tests and answers on AOPS to prepare. Did the same in 10th grade.
So it is possible but it is a long, hard road and not too rewarding but it was worth it. He moved to a different HS for 11/12 grades and his old HS no longer does the AMCs. (He was able to do the same for the F=ma)
I don’t know about other schools. Our school counselors told us the AP exam is almost a non factor in college admission for the students in our school since our school doesn’t follow AP curriculum. But a good AP score certainly doesn’t hurt.
AP exams are more of a content exam. For highly selective college, it provides little value IMO. But I think it could help certain type of students in certain type of high schools.
The awareness and availability of these competitions (AMC, F=ma, etc.) vary from region to region and district to district. At those schools where they’re widely avialable, my guess is that most students who take them aren’t really serious about these competitions. For the ones who are serious, it IS a multi-year committment. Regardless of the participation rate, none of the colleges, including MIT/Caltech, can or would use them for anything but as some ancillary supporting material. It’s different story, of course, if an applicant won a gold in IMO or IPhO or IOI.
I would think that an AIME qualification would be more highly considered than an 800 on the SAT Math portion…but I do not know how they factor it in. I understand that the MIT/Caltech etc would want more than that but I do not think they are nearly on the same level.
Yes. Nearly everyone at Caltech or MIT has an 800 SAT math score. And I certainly agree SAT/ACT tests aren’t really going to tell their students apart. I’m not sure people are aware, that students at these schools also have some of the highest verbal scores as well.
If >95% of test takers only take the AMC and take no further exams, such as AIME, how is it a multi-year commitment? Or is the implication that >95% of test takers aren’t serious? When I was in HS I did a lot of these types of math exams/competitions, as well as things like NYS Math League. None were what I’d consider a multi-year commitment, but I wouldn’t say I wasn’t serious about them.
A similar statement could be made about math SAT/ACT. Nevertheless, there is a reason why the schools asked about AMC score on their application.
Take a look at the post above. I find it odd that many want to eliminate SAT/ACT scores for their shortcomings but think having an AIME score is somehow going to be easier to get.
For kids who come from low SES homes, having a standard test gives a boost. It’s standard so likely to be a known quantity. Take that away from CG’s and the level playing field so often sought on CC becomes even rockier.
If folks don’t test well they can apply TO. Why take testing away for the kids who fall into other groups.
I don’t know about you, but yes, >95% (if that’s the right number) in your scenario isn’t serious about competitions.
Yes, AMC/AIME scores are certainly more useful than SAT/ACT math scores for applicants who have them.
I think we need to separate test required vs optional additions to the application.
Having the ability to submit AMC score, hackathon result, or other types of academic exams/competition does not mean every applicant is required to do so. If a kid doesn’t have AMC, Math League, or whatever else in their area, then they can mention other out of classroom activities that are available within the application. They choose ECs, awards, or other activities that are relevant to their interests and planned field of study, which hopefully enhance their application.
This is different from test required. A required test means everyone has to take it, regardless of background, and implies that the required test will influence admission results. The 2 are completely different. In the case of SAT/ACT, that required test has numerous flaws.
Agree that exposure is an issue at many high schools. I wish more kids knew about the AMC/AIME and other academic competitions.
Where I am the local university sponsors a math circle for grades 6-12. The university hosts the AMC and kids in math circle can also tryout for the ARML (American Regional Mathematics League) team. Knowledge about math circle is shared via word of mouth among parents with similarly tracked kids.
My S23 is advanced in math. He’s taking calculus but using linear algebra and discrete math in programming projects. He’s not at all interested in math competitions but, through math circle, was able to participate in NACLO (North American Computational Linguistics Open Competition).
I think at the average high school, teachers and GCs are just too overwhelmed to search for opportunities outside of the curriculum.
Agree with optional tests like AIME being added if wanted/needed. But I see real value in standardization since there is no other basis of comparison. AO’s know it’s not the best indicator and its flawed but it still has value as a baseline.
There’re a lot of kids like that. They love math, but not necessarily math competitions. There’s another active thread started today by a parent whose child is very advanced in math for a HS junior (has studied number theory and abstract algebra, etc.) but uninterested in competitions.
I didn’t mean it as a hypothetical. Only the top 5% of AMC test takers are invited to take AIME. Of those 5% who are invited, a significant portion do not take AIME, so >95% of AMC test takers do not take AIME. The AIME exam is typically held a few weeks after the AMC, so still not a multi-year commitment for the rare few who take it. Only ~270 AIME test takers are invited to take USAMO, so tests beyond AIME only impacts a near negligible portion of those who take AMC. A lot of people besides those ~270 are “serious.”
Those who advance to AIME based on the 5% rule usually aren’t the high scorers, who typically advance based on their scores (not percentages). The serious contestants typically started well before AMC 12. They probably started in their middle schools (AMC8/10, etc.), advancing to higher levels as they grow up. In fact, many AIME qualifiers never even took AMC 12. These competitions aren’t age restricted.
He doesn’t love math. It’s a means to an end—his passion is CS. Just offering a suggestion for anyone reading as to where they can look for resources if their child is interested in competitions (i.e. math circles, etc).
That’s also very common these days.
You can view the score distribution for the most recent AMC 12 at https://amc-reg.maa.org/reports/generalreports.aspx . Top 5% = >87. >87 is less restrictive than the 100 score rule, so only 5% were invited. Others recent exams a similar pattern.
Many students do participate in multiple AMC exams, such as participating in AMC 10 in 10th grade and participating in AMC 12 in 12th grade. However, this does not mean that only the top 5% of scorers are “serious.” I also wouldn’t call this requiring a multi-year commitment.
Yes, it is a supporting material, but if the students do well on those, it could be a deciding factor for some college’s admissions. Obviously, you DON’T need to have these to get admitted, but it could be a huge boost, no need to be IXO level.
For boys, if you got AMO, you got a decent shot on T5 schools. For girls, if you got AIME, you got a decent shot on T5 schools too.