<p>Need based aid is important in my opinion, and it does disturb me to hear that schools are replacing it with merit components. I never liked the way colleges would accept 5 Kids with a $5000 need rather than one who needs $25K. Yet I am fully aware that the financial aid department does have to figure a way to get as many kids funded that are accepted. It is a difficult situation.</p>
<p>For now I wish every college would have this basic information on their website and application" whether they are need blind or not, % of kids who received 100% of EFC as determined by Profile, % of EFC by FAFSA met, average grant, average self help, average loans over 4 years, % of need met as determined by profile, number of kids rejected the prior year for need factors and what their average need was, % of kids eligible for the Pell grant. I would like merit info as well. It is really difficult to find this kind of info on a school and many kids apply blindly with no idea of what the financial policies of their chosen colleges are.</p>
<p>My daughter was offered very few merit awards. She also worked very hard in school , amassing over 2000 volunteer hours by graduation as well as particpating in ECs like Track/musical/studio art and taking 5 academic classes. She didn't do these things to earn merit awards- she did them for her own benefit- and because they made her who she is today- she is reaping those rewards.
Yes- I suppose if we more carefully looked for schools that offered merit awards she would have gotten some money out of it too, but the time she spent pursuing those activities can not be considered as wasted.
While she did work summers during high school- her time mostly was spent in unpaid positions, a luxury that some families can't afford. HOwever I feel the colleges are missing out- if they only look at fancy programs as worthwhile activities- some of the students that I know that are working fast food jobs are learning the values of teamwork- punctuality and they are hardworking professional students who will be an asset to any school.
D also was able to earn more money summers once she hit 18 and graduated from high school- she earns about $2,000 during the school year and $3,000 summers with it all going toward school expenses</p>
<p>Schools whose academic reputation makes students want to attend dont' need to offer merit awards to attract students- why should they? Applicants are already fighting over the chance to go. However as more high school graduates plan to attend college the most competitive students will be spread over a larger percentage of schools and gradually those schools will become much more in demand- lessening their need to offer merit to attract students as well.</p>
<p>During the recent Supreme Court case involving Affirmative Action, the case was made by its proponents that a "critical mass" of various types of students was necessary--not only for the benefit of those students favored by the preferential admissions policy--but also in order for those preferred students to attend a given college in numbers significant enough for their presence to have impact on the student body at large. That is why we see merit aid being offered regardless of financial need---it's a financial incentive used by colleges to induce those who are several standard deviations above the norm (sorry, I just like the way Larry Summers phrases things) to attend THEIR school--instead of the "elite and ultra-prestigious" schools where they are doubtless also going to be admitted. A super-brilliant student who also happens to be from the upper economic strata provides a spark that is every bit as important to academic life on a given campus as a student whose primary defining contribution is his ethnicity. I'm sure the schools also like the "luster" provided by a few high GPAs and SATs, but it's not as simplistic as that.</p>
<p>Smartgirlsmom, first I think your d is going to UT Austin? like my son. congrats on a wise choice. </p>
<p>It is since I believe in a merit based society, that I agree with Northstarmom on who as a rule largely gets the what in college admissions lingo is called "merit". Just because it is called "merit" aid doesn't mean it leads to what would normally be called a merit based society. This is particularly true, when as seems to be the case, the "merit" aid leads to a cut back on need based aid. </p>
<p>Interestingly those who purport to believe in a merit based society, while having allegiance to the common conservative nostrum of the "market knows best" have a problem, as it is shown that the market forces lead colleges to use so called "merit" aid to advance their own image at the expense of low and middle income students of superior accomplishment.</p>
<p>I understand merit aid goes for merit-- but I can see that it helps the wealthy more. Why? Because merit aid is not applied to EFC. Thus merit aid does not reduce the family's responsibility unless the family's EFC is higher than tuition. It may however, reduce the loan component. Unless a kid's merit award is stellar (like full ride territory) it may not make a school substantially more affordable to a poorer kid with good stats.</p>
<p>
[quote]
as it is shown that the market forces lead colleges to use so called "merit" aid to advance their own image at the expense of low and middle income students of superior accomplishment.
[/quote]
Where is this shown? If you have evidence of low and middle class students of "superior accomplishment" being cast aside due to "merit" aid offered to their intellectual inferiors in the upper caste, I want to see it.</p>
<p>I think that in general merit aid should be cut. They should just give out aid based on need (of course, each college could determine need, but thats a different story) Even though I got oodles of merit money from tulane I felt as if they were trying to buy me off. Sure I felt flattered but I hadnt submitted an essay, teacher recs, resume, or had an interview. I felt as if they were trying to buy the numbers that I was associated with rather than the person I was. That left a bad taste in my mouth. </p>
<p>Then again, people are different, my friend who got offered 20,000 per year will be going there.</p>
<p>I disagree that merit aid should go. I think it serves a good purpose in lifting the 'academic status' of fine institutions that may be a bit overlooked, and it opens private LACs & other regions to kids that would otherwise onbly be able to do large state schools.</p>
<p>Furthermore, there are people-- those who have saved diligently and "gone without" or those with great home equity but no ability to move-- who can't qualify for need-based aid but are not exactly wealthy either. These "High EFC, Low Income" kids are the ones who are likely to benefit from merit aid. (Genuinely wealthy families would not probably be tempted away from elites by $15K a year.)</p>
<p>I agree with SBmom- that is exactly my situation. If Scripps/Grinnell/Rochester hadn't been so generous with merit aid, I'd probably not be attending a private college. The same goes for a lot of kids in the middle income crunch. In fact, I think guidance counselors should be emphasizing merit aid a lot more, especially in the case of kids who might get into their dream school and not be able to afford it.</p>
<p>Okay, I thought about this last night...if you were to go to buy a car, you pick the one you like and you start talking price with the salesman. His first question is, "how much do you make and how much is your house worth?". You tell him and he tells you the car costs $40,000. At the next desk over, you overhear another salesman telling another couple that based on their lower salary and lower assets, their price for the exact same care will be $14,000. Tell me you wouldn't be ****ed and think it was grossly unfair?</p>
<p>Now, change the situation into shopping for car insurance. Your child is an excellent driver. He or she has never been in an accident, and has taken extra defensive driving classes to improve. You know that a friend's son or daughter is not a very good driver. They barely passed driver's education and they've already been in many accidents. Would you expect to pay the same amount for auto insurance as your friend, or would you think that the insurance company might cut you some slack since your child is less of a risk? I think that's what merit aid is like, a college taking a risk that your high achieving student will not only finish the college program, but add to the reputation of the school by going above and beyond the average student (no matter the average student's socio-economic status).</p>
<p>Texdad, my daughter will be attending Smith College. I post frequently on the UT Austin board because I worked there for 7 years. I hope your son enjoys his UT experience!</p>
<p>I understand the broad response that money should go into need based aid. However, if a school meets 100% of financial need (whatever that is), why shouldn't they provide some merit aid to increase their stature?</p>
<p>Here are a few schools with merit aid programs that also provide for 100% of financial need, U of Chicago, Duke, University of Southern California, Boston College, WUStL.</p>
<p>From my perspective, if a school provides for 100% of financial need for all students then they should be free to provide as much merit aid as they like. Further, looking at the endowments at a number of schools, I see no reason why they shouldn't be offering more merit aid.</p>
<p>I don't think that one can compare how colleges are "sold" with how cars are sold.</p>
<p>To me, a better comparison would be the cost of medical procedures. If a person qualifies for a nonelective medical procedure because they are ill, I have no problem with their getting a discount if they lack the income to pay the full price.</p>
<p>If I could afford to pay the price, I wouldn't feel that a poor person's getting free or low cost medical care hurt me. Sure, I'd be happy to have the extra money, but I don't feel cheated.</p>
<p>This is real world for me. For example, I have paid full price for psychotherapy when I also knew that my therapists gave reduced prices to people who were poor. While I certainly felt an economic pinch by paying full price for therapy that cost up to $125 an hour, I didn't begrudge impoverished patients' getting the same 50 minute hour for less than I was paying.</p>
<p>When it comes to merit aid, I don't have a problem with colleges offering it. (Heck, I hope that S will qualify for some since he's unlikely to qualify for much need-based aid). I just don't like it when merit aid means that students get shut out of getting need-based aid.</p>
<p>The idea that people pay the same for cars isn't accurate- that is where I suppose you could bring merit aid into it. If a school is really desperate for students of a certain caliber- it seems likely that they would offer what ever inticements to persuade them to attend.
When I bought a car recently- I was really not that interested and the salesman eventually knocked 1/4 of the price to get me to sign.
It was a buyers market in other words.
But if you compare that to the housing market- houses around here are snapped up so fast that buyers are in competition with each other and end up paying more than the offered price.
Schools receive money from the government and from donors as well as their own investments to keep the cost affordable and in reach because our society has determined that an educated populace benefits everyone.
I don't know if you could say the same thing about new car purchases, how does that improve my quality of life?
Need based aid does make sense to me- heres why.
a family whose child qualifies for need based aid- has not had the same resources to raise that child than other who do not qualify.
Two students one has $10,000 EFC one has $60,000 EFC.
One student has attended city schools, no SAT tutoring, parents likely didn't attend college, no coaching vocab around dinner table, works at fast food summers. Has 1300 SAT 3.50 GPA
The other student has two professional parents, spends summers in enrichment academic activities/traveling, parents have challenged and encouraged to push onward academically through out childhood. Has 1300 SAT 3.50 GPA
The financially needier student is the better bet if the choice is between merit aid or need based- this is why.
The first student likely has not topped out academically, in a supportive challenging environment, it is likely that they have the intellectual capacity to go much farther than they did in high school.
The second student has received lots of support growing up and while may do well in high school, he also may have already reached his potential.</p>
<p>I understand that some schools offer both merit and need, but some only offer merit within need. With costs soaring above $40,000 every year for private schools, do really that many familes not qualify for need based aid?</p>
<p>You would be surprised at what colleges think families are capable of affording in tuition. </p>
<p>I stand by my car buying analogy. If you don't have the money to buy an expensive car, why on earth would you shop for one? If you don't have the money to afford an expensive private school education, why would you shop for one? Where does this sense of entitlement come from? I can relate to expecting a PUBLIC school to provide for as much need based aid as possible, because it is a mission statement of public universities to offer higher education to all residents. That isn't the motive behind a private school.</p>
<p>As for the medical analogy, higher education and life-saving medical procedures are truly not comparable. One can live without an education or with a more affordable public education, whereas a non-elective procedure, I'm assuming, is a life or death situation.</p>
<p>Though the medical analogy is exactly how many people see this, which is the issue. There is entitlement thoughts going on, somehow access to all schools has become thought of as a necessity like medical care. I really ponder why this is.</p>
<p>I also think the car anology is a good one. It is heartbreaking to read all the threads of the dissapointed kids whose parents stood by and allowed them to shop for the Ferrari colleges when they had a Honda budget.</p>
<p>I
[quote]
stand by my car buying analogy. If you don't have the money to buy an expensive car, why on earth would you shop for one? If you don't have the money to afford an expensive private school education, why would you shop for one? Where does this sense of entitlement come from? I can relate to expecting a PUBLIC school to provide for as much need based aid as possible, because it is a mission statement of public universities to offer higher education to all residents. That isn't the motive behind a private school.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The funny thing is public schools don't often offer merit or need based aid. While taxpayers do subsidize tuition for all in state students, students pretty much pay the same amount regardless of their finances.
The private schools, with large endowments , have the ability to offer aid to truely needy students, oftentimes with grants instead of loans.</p>
<p>I don't disagree that parents need to be realistic about what college will cost- we were willing to borrow to meet our EFC and the only private school that was considered was one that met 100% of need.
Many parents aren't going to borrow to pay EFC, many don't want to pay EFC the way that it is calculated, and many students are even afraid to take out subsidized loans.
It helps to realize that offers may vary between similar schools, and to have your heart set on one, and one alone, is like being determined to marry Drew Barrymore and no one else. If you don't have an alternate idea waiting in the wings you are going to be pretty disappointed ( especially since I think she is married?)</p>
<p>Our EFC is about what it would cost to attend instate public school- no aid was offered even though her stats were well above average. While I do know students who had full rides in the honors program, they had top of the mark scores and stats and could have easily gained admittance to competitive schools. Since the EFC is the same for a school that meets 100% of need or an instate public school- why wouldn't I encourage daughter to apply to a school that could be academically superior to the local university?</p>
<p>You don't get financial or merit aid to buy a car. The small incentives offered are not usually deal breakers between buying a $20K or less care and a $40K+ car. Financial aid is without doubt to me, the front line in the aid a school should offer. Shame on those schools who do not offer a good financial aid program and instead are putting all of their money into merit. However, because of the reality of the college market many schools do need to offer merit aid in order to keep their status quo. I am not really that sympathetic, however, to those arguments. I can see if a school is struggling to exist, indanger of closing like what happend to Bradford College in Mass, but I have little sympathy for schools with the accept rates like Wash U or Johns Hopkins or NYU gapping or not accepting kids because of the economics of their financial need. A drop in their yield would have to be precipitous indeed to affect them. And such schools are shamelessly buying students while penalizing some poor kid who can't afford to go without aid. I just hope that eligibility for the Pell grant or needing close to full aid is a positive factor in the admissions report for these kids. For those with a small need factors, that is a bit different. I do believe there is a financial threshhold where if your family is making that little money, it is a true detriment to the kids, and it is a plus that the kid has enough going for him to even apply to top schools. Again, though it is squeezing that middle class to use my approach, however.</p>
<p>I'd be OK with dropping merit aid if they also dropped "athletic aid". I actually think that is a bigger waste than the merit aid. I suppose the schools make money with their sports programs?</p>
<p>My D is going to school based solely on merit aid. We could afford to have her attend a local state college if she didn't get this merit aid. Tuition fees here are only $100 per credit hour and she could commute from home (50 miles). But the state U doesn't have her majors, so...</p>
<p>I am having a hard time figuring out why colleges are so expensive anyway. Is there a way to bring the costs down while still providing a stellar education?</p>
<p>jamimom, Exactly!! You don't buy a car with financial aid or merit aid. You don't buy any other thing with assistance from the seller, why do you think a college should provide assistance to sell their product? </p>
<p>For my D, the merit aid was the defining incentive between two similar schools. In the broad picture, her 3k scholarship is truly a drop in the bucket, and our family will be funding the rest - $40k+ per year. Now the school that is offering her the tiny incentive to attend will be the recipient of the rest of the tuition from us, as well as getting a student with a proven track record of achievement. </p>
<p>And, believe me, even if you are doing alright, $40,000 is a lot of cash.</p>