<p>SGM, I disagree with your statement about 'private' schools. Here are a few reasons why some 'public' issues apply to them:</p>
<ul>
<li>Much of their 'financial aid' is federal financial aid. It is one reason they require the FAFSA.</li>
<li>The federal government also fund research at those institutions, i.e. MIT, CalTech, U of Chicago.</li>
<li>They are tax-exmpt institutions, i.e. Brown is not required to pay taxes to the city of Providence.</li>
<li>They are non-profit institutions, though many have significant endowments. For example, Harvard has an endowment greater than $22B</li>
</ul>
<p>As noted before, once schools provide for 100% of financial need I see no issue with them providing merit aid. In fact I would suggest that they should provide merit aid.</p>
<p>Now the real tricky question is 'what is financial need?'</p>
<p>So, when merit aid is discussed, we aren't talking about the same pool of money as the need based aid since it is coming from the federal government and not the college, is that correct? Of course any federal money would go to need based assistance, that's appropriate, but I don't know why it should be a given that the college's discretionary funds should be used for supporting tuition for students who can't pay the remainder beyond what the government has offered.</p>
<p>As far as federal research dollars, I work at a public university, in the sponsored research office, and federal research money supports the research effort, not the student education effort.</p>
<p>Nobody answered my question about entitlement. Why should anybody be entitled to a private college education? If you can't afford it, you can't afford it.</p>
<p>State schools often gap as well, and yet they offer meirt money. There is no entitlement to college. You are entitled to what your parents will pay for.</p>
<p>"Why should anybody be entitled to a private college education? If you can't afford it, you can't afford it."</p>
<p>No one is entitled to a private college education.</p>
<p>However, private colleges are enhanced by having students attend who come from the entire economic stratum. A lot of the learning in college occurs when students interact with each other. Having an economically diverse student body is important -- particularly to the top echelon colleges that view themselves as preparing students to take on leadership roles in a variety of fields and ways in society.</p>
<p>I wonder if kids end up socialising with others from their own socioeconomic level in college?......or if they really do mix around with kids from backgrounds that differ from theirs?</p>
<p>well my daughter who attends a superficially homogenous school- although they do have students of various flavors of the left;) ( although I heard a rumour that there is a Republician from Texas- but seriously- they do welcome other viewpoints in fact they just invited Ward Churchillhttp://portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/04/315715.shtml),
she does have friends from all over.
Her background is white- blue collar low middle income.
Her friends come from other blue collar families- several are asian students with professional parents, a few of her friends have parents who are university professors from top schools on the east coast, some of her friends attend school with help from their trust fund and others are on more financial aid than she is.
Her school because it is so small however may promote more interaction with different groups on campus. A larger school, while it would have more students who are interested in the exact things you are, might have students sticking with peers from their major for example.
While my daughter is a bio major- her best friends are majoring in psych- theatre-chinese-music- as well as biology and chem. ( physics major apparently keep to themselves although her friend in psych did get certified to run the nuclear reactor)
I feel diversity adds much more to the campus than can be measured.
As we gear up to begin looking at schools for #2 daughter, we will be looking for diversity on campus and how it plays out, if all the blacks are confined to the black student union or are they involved in other groups on campus. If the school is affordable for students who might be first generation college ( as my daughter is), how many students are interested in being involved in the community and how many just want to get out and start printing money.</p>
<p>When I went to Harvard, I had friends who included first generation college students from blue collar backgrounds to people who were very well off. </p>
<p>One funny thing: One of my friends who was first generation college, blue collar background ended up becoming one of the wealthiest people in the class (She married a millionaire whom she met through her job after college. He went to a nonIvy, and never graduated from college).</p>
<p>Certainly the enlightened understand that a diverse group benefits all. Yet the bottom line remains, the schools get to decide who they want to financially subsidize. Some will put their funds towards diversity, some towards athletics, towards raising their stats or to haveing the world's best artists or bowlers! Whatever they choose. We as consumers get to decide where we want to put our money and our children, so if you don't like how a college spends, avoid it.</p>
<p>When we hear that the differences in calibre between many of the schools in the top 50 or so has narrowed considerably, is it it partly because merit aid draws kids who may have the stats for more competetive schools but for various reasons, inot only finances, choose a respectable school that may not be in the top 25? Or because with one spot for every 10 applicants at many schools you have 9 left that are "qualified candidates" and need to go elsewhere and so the next level, if you will, of schools compete for these students? Just as some compete for poorer students with desired qualifications or backgrounds by providing more generous financial aid.</p>
<p>There are some schools that give merit aid based on alumi gifts specified for this purpose. There are some merit scholarships that take finances into consideration so a Middle Class student with stats similar to those of a wealthy student would get preferential consideration.</p>
<p>I think many first generation or middle class families earn too much for aid but too little to make affording 175K for each child anything but a major stretch. Many in our generation had our children when we were into our 30s. Unlike previous generations, by the time the last one graduates we have little time left to recoup our savings before retirement---which given life expectancy is a looooong time.... .</p>
<p>There is an entire thead about schools that offer merit aid. Does anyone know if this info is complied into a book or database somewhere?</p>
<p>SmartGirlsMom - the reason people expect "assistance" with the price of college is because the sticker price for college is an entirely bogus number. It is like that sale price you see on that sweater you want at the department store. Nobody ever paid full price for it. The merchante buys it for $20 outs it on the rack for one day with a price tag of $100 and then marks it 25% off the next. That $75 price is still more than the merchant thinks will be the ultimate average selling price but he is expecting to further reduce the price until he unloads the whole inventory. The last odd sized ones will end up in the Filene's basement going for less than cost. Average price of sweaters sold will probably by $50. The early more eager buyers in effect subsidize the basement buyers.</p>
<p>"However, private colleges are enhanced by having students attend who come from the entire economic stratum."</p>
<p>Funny that nobody has ever applied that logic to vacation cruises and homeless winos.</p>
<p>Anyway I think that merit based aid is almost as bad an idea as merit based pay. I mean why do we pay heart surgeons more than the guy who says, "Can I Sper Size that for you?" I say we should have need based pay. After all where would that heart surgeon be without all those artery clogging fries? The kid in the paper hat has needs.</p>
<p>My son at MIT says it seems as if there are a lot of kids on the highest and lowest end of the wealth scale and not near as many in the middle with parents (like his) who saved, went without and still have to borrow, scrape and change jobs to pay for school. I don't know if his observation is accurate, and it's based mostly on the students in his dorm, but I thought it was interesting.</p>
<p>Over30. what is the % of kids on financial aid there? And what are the % of kids who qualify for Pell grants? That will give you an idea of who is in the middle. Have not checked for MIT, but my guess is that about half are on financial aid, and not that many are poor enough to qualify for Pell.</p>
<p>Jamimon, I don't know, but I think I read about 80+% are on fin. aid. But that includes my son who got a small subsidized loan and an even smaller amount in work study. Not enough to make much of a difference, and certainly not enough to tip the scales for most. And this was definitely a non-scientific observation.</p>
<p>I have a hard time reading all these posts from those who think that students who have worked very hard from day 1 to excel academically, while at the same time balancing some extracurriculars they love, and working during summer, should not be rewarded. We do not have snazzy cars, membership in a country club, beach houses or boats. We did not start out with inherited money. We both worked very hard, saved what we could, invested as wisely as possible and hoped for the best when it came time for college. We did not cheat, hide money or lie on any forms. We understood that by saving, using 529's and investing, we might not qualify for need-based aid...but by not planning for college, we would really find ourselves debt-ridden. Our children did not do fancy summer study trips, have thousands of dollars worth of test prep courses or lessons in anything in H.S. They have worked every summer to earn the money for their books & expenses. They know that we will do our best to send them to whatever college they have worked to get into, as long as they continue to work hard and get a great education, and not take their college opportunities for granted. They know what we have sacrificed for them to go to school, and they are conscientious about their responsibilities. We are really proud of their hard work and attitude.</p>
<p>What is distressing is that there are many kids they know who are getting into Ivies for sports (ok, no money for that, but much easier admission) and into very good to excellent D-1 schools with lots of money for their sport. In many cases these kids have been mediocre students, but it doesn't seem to matter. Our kids (and the many others out there) who have worked very hard to do well don't see any financial reward for their efforts at most schools. In fact, those of us who are not qualifying for any financial aid, end up feeling as though we are paying for our own child, AND someone else's, when we send our tuition checks. We have not whined to people about it (except in this post!), but I am sorry to hear so many people whining about some kids getting merit money if they truly deserve it. Even DS's National Merit scholarship is funded by one parent's company being a sponsor, not coming out of the general National Merit fund. We know that ultimately their reward will be a great education and college experience--and feeling successful and happy in the field of their choice. Their happiness will be the true payoff--and isn't that really the goal we all have for our children? By sticking to that goal we try not to dwell on the fact that life isn't fair in the world of financial aid, or in college admissions. We just wish everyone would realize that some people who are not receiving financial aid are NOT rich, particularly if they live in parts of the country that have an incredibly high cost of living and they have more than 2.2 kids! And...that we are helping foot the bill for some of that financial aid going to so many others--without being able to claim it as a charitable contribution!</p>
<p>I have issues with schools that gap financial aid and provide merit scholarships. I think fully funding need based financial aid should come first then whatever the schools wants to do beyond that should be fine.</p>
<p>I agree with Irishforever. I think that a merit scholarship ( even a tolken one) shows a very hard working academic student that his/her efforts were noticed and rewarded.</p>
<p>We can debate this all year. Isn't the bottom line that colleges are entitled to do what they want and will continue to do so? We all need to realign our thinking and stop thinking of colleges (privates) as something in the public domaine that we get input into. </p>
<p>Start lobbying to ensure that your state schools reflect the values of the people. Make sure they are well funded and that there are expansion plans in states that need it (CA for one!). Those schools are the future of most kids who can't afford the rapidly rising cost of the privates. Every state should have a Harvard. That's the solution, not complaining that college "businesses" are unfair.</p>