<p>Here’s the thing, though: you are not the professional administrators at the University of Wisconsin. You don’t oversee a university for a living. And UW administrators agree with ME that it’s a problem, and they disagree with you.</p>
<p>"But if they change majors midway through, study abroad, or do other things that cost them some time . . . "</p>
<p>Kids at U-Va (including mine), North Carolina, William and Mary, Michigan, and Illinois also change majors and study abroad. Yet, they still manage to graduate on time. </p>
<p>Oh, and Sally, this isn’t a thread about the University of Virginia, but since you brought it up, U-Va wouldn’t “kill” to move up 14 points on its graduation rate because 85 percent isn’t an embarrassing number that’s dragging down the state’s educational system and finances. To the contrary, as the Washington Post article observes, it’s a number that rivals the top private schools in the country. And don’t even get me started on UW’s African American graduation rate, which borders or criminal . . .</p>
<p>I just don’t understand why UW boosters can’t acknowledge the problem (as UW administrators and students plainly do) and applaud the university’s attention to it instead of getting all huffy and puffy about it. Attitudes like that – refusing to acknowledge both the bad and the good – does a disservice to students and parents who turn to this site as a source of credible information.</p>
<p>Badger, I’ll agree with you to a certain extent, although I only see it from what my D has gone through, in one branch of the school.</p>
<p>For as complex & diverse (yet potentially rewarding) as the course offerings are at UW-Madison, the advising system could definitely stand an upgrade, especially at SOAR. What is extremely obtuse at times is being able to decipher what class satisfies what requirement, in the core as well as the majors. It’s a moving target at times as requirements within a major changes, and the advisors are not pro-active all the time when these changes take place. Some are on the ball, though, and that has helped.</p>
<p>I would imagine this takes place at other large U’s, but I suppose this contributes to the 4+ year plan.</p>
<p>Are you aware of all the new money that has gone into advising? No? They are aware it is an issue for some but overall only 10% of UG students rated advising poor and 65% rated it good or excellent and that was before they hired dozens of additional advisors in the last year. BTW UVA students rated their advising significantly lower than UW students with about 15% saying poor and only a little over half saying good or excellent (NSSE surveys).
Personally I think a smart person should be able to read the requirements and craft their own plan. It is hardly rocket science. I cannot think of one miniute I spent having anyone tell me what classes to take and I managed to get three degrees.
I would prefer much more support in the postgrad job and grad school planning areas. The B school did a good job but I hear others are not so robust. That is also being improved along with more advising, esp in L&S.</p>
<p>A lot of schools have this problem and stupid bureacracy is sometimes the blame. My son wants to change his major, really declare a major since he is undecided. But his major is in a different school within his university. He could not get into a class needed for his major because it’s first come, first serve with those already in the business school getting the first go at it and he was blocked out. To transfer to the school and to the major, the want these core courses taken. Talk about a Catch 22. He is taking the course, a Cost Accounting course this summer. He can’t sign up for the Intermediate level courses until his transfer is approved at which time, the courses could be full. With those kind of rules, no wonder kids don’t graduate in 4 years. He’s only completed freshman year, and it’s could still be an issue.</p>
<p>Barrons your posts are so consistently one-sided – and so aggressive and nasty whenever anyone says anything even slightly critical of UW, no matter how well intentioned – that they are very difficult to take seriously. CC is meant to be an informational website, not a cheerleading one.</p>
<p>Nova, You can look up the numbers in the NSSE files at both schools. They say what they say. Maybe in my day we were just a little less dependent on others to hold our hands at every obstacle. That’s why we did interesting things in college that changed society while today they text. Now that last part is just my opinion.</p>
<p>Have you actually experienced advising firsthand within the past 5 years? When was the last time you were a student?</p>
<p>Two can play at the confrontational and accusatory questioning game which ultimately leads nowhere.</p>
<p>The numbers are interesting and a bit surprising, but in this case I would peg this down as students not knowing what they’re missing. A lot of students just accept how things are, and base their advising experiences on how nice an advisor was, not how well the system works. I’ve gotten advice from a very cordial advisor, but that doesn’t change the fact that the overall environment and system needs improvement.</p>
<p>As far as your comments about being able to craft your own plan… good for you? Not everyone is as prepared coming into college, especially those who are first generation students. Even those who are prepared might realize they want to forge a different path. Someone can be highly intelligent but lack knowledge about the college experience and what to expect, as well as what courses they should take to best prepare themselves for more difficult classes and/or if they want to switch gears or go into a different major – that’s where advising comes in.</p>
<p>I was first generation and neither parent was born in the US nor did they complete high school nor were they native English speakers. But all three children managed to complete college without much handholding. I filled out my own FAFSA because my parents were reluctant to give that info to the government. So I do get a little impatient with people who can’t fend for themselves when info is so much easier to find these days. 90% of the questions here can be easily answered on the UW site which is easy to use–even an old nasty person who learned to do math on a slide rule can do it.</p>
<p>I think many freshmen coming in to UW-Madison are so absolutely gobstopped by the place that as long as they aren’t set on fire by their advisor, it’s okay. Even with parental help, they really have no idea of the permutations of course selection–and the great potential of such I might add–until the sophomore/junior years. Only then, they might reflect and say ‘geez, maybe I shoulda done this a little differently’.</p>
<p>Not accusatory, it happens. BUT…most answers to the complexities are somewhere within the UW website. A prospective frosh would do well to really delve into it before SOAR, all I’m saying.</p>
<p>I can see how it takes more then four years to graduate UW with a degree in some business major. First you can’t apply until after your freshmen year. I assume that a lot of students take courses that they may not be interested waiting to be accepted (Junior and seniors can select electives better then freshmen and sophomores). If you are not accepted after the freshman year then some may take other classes that they wouldn’t have taken. If they are finally accepted after their sophomore year they are behind. Some may feel they want one major in business then after taking a few classes decide that they don’t like that major, as you can see they are already committed to a fifth year. The fifth and sixth year seniors clog up the machine because they will get priority over other students in class selection. My solution is accept students from high school directly into the business school and let them experiment with the beginning core classes.</p>
<p>novaparent: I have been reading your posts for months and have not said anything. But after reading your last few posts, I frankly do not understand your agenda at all. Every time you come on this forum, you post negative comments about UW. Fine, you do not like the school. It is your perogative. But why bother to even come on this forum at all? I mean, if your child is happy at UVA, that is wonderful. I am happy for them. But lots of kids are happy at UW also…College is all about fit and no college is perfect for everyone.<br>
I live in California and frankly, our average years to graduate is probably five years at least, with all of our budget cuts and cuts in classes offered. Yet with schools like Berkeley and UCLA and even UCSD, people still attend those schools and are proud alumni. They are at least on caliber with UVA and MIchigan. And students graduate and are able to find good jobs and people are impressed with those degrees. There are plenty of students who do manage to graduate in four years at all schools, even at the ones who have a much lower advertised graduation rate.</p>
<p>The four year graduation rates at each of the schools that you identified are much higher than UW’s and in fact don’t average out to five years. My only “agenda” is to highlight this serious issue. UW needs to do better graduating its undergraduates on time.</p>
<p>How must one determine “ontime”? Does my gifted son choosing to take the 5th year to finish off a second major instead of doing 5 years of elementary school, thus graduating at 21 instead of 22 due to his birthdate mean he was ahead, on time or behind? He had done several grad level courses his 4th year but could have opted to graduate after 3. One size doesn’t fit all. Confused? It’s all perfectly logical- there are many excellent reasons to take more time. Something about lies and statistics… comes to mind.</p>
<p>I looked it up, and UC Berkeley has a 69 percent graduate rate in four years, and UCLA has a 75 percent graduation rate in four years. My older son was accepted to the UCLA School of Engineering two years ago, and the Dean of the School of Engineering told us upfront the average length of time for a student in engineering to graduate was 4 1/4 years. It just takes that long to complete all the necessary coursework. My son elected not to attend there. However, as a California resident with knowledge of the UC system and one who knows a lot of kids who attend the various UCs, one of the explanations for perhaps this higher graduation rate trend is because the UC’s tend to be very generous with giving AP credits from high school courses, and it is not unusual for an entering freshman, by the time their AP credits are counted, to be considered a sophomore in terms of their completed credits. Especially if the students have taken a lot of AP courses while in high school.</p>
<p>Quite true. Two nieces graduated from UC’s recently and they were done in 3.5 years. Reason: AP Credit with a score of 3.</p>
<p>In contrast, UW gives only course credit with a score of 4. And 3 is credited as an “general elective”. So examining what will happen to my S, it doesn’t appear like he will get a semester’s credit applied to his major for all the AP’s he took.</p>
<p>I also know a lot of kids this summer who are just home from the various UC’s and are only home for a week because they are going back to school for summer school or are trying to get into classes at junior colleges (yeah, good luck with that) . They are not doing summer classes to repeat a class, but are feeling compelled to take summer classes in order to graduate in four years. So the higher graduation rates at UC’s may not reflect all the students who take summer classes and that is helping them to reach the four year graduation rate.</p>