<p>MarathonMan,
Thanks for the clarification. I think there still is lots of room for the students who haven't decided on an intellectual or EC focus, but who are passionate about intellectual or EC things. Indeed, from what I've seen, most successful applications to places like HPY have a couple of activities that they are extremely interested in. Indeed, it's rare for an applicant to have devoted single minded passion to one thing. What's not wanted are students who've compiled a laundry list to look good. Students who have pursued a few things with a lot of passion are still highly appreciated.</p>
<p>NSM, isn't this comparing apples to oranges? A laundry list of activities does not a make a well-rounded candidate. I meet many 'flat', uninteresting teenagers with laundry lists of activities comprised of music, drama, sports and volunteer camps and jobs--and I would never describe those flat kids as well-rounded. For whatever reason, they have failed to connect with those activities. There is no 'there' there. </p>
<p>I dunno. Maybe it's me. My definition of a well-rounded kid is one that has a little spark--one that has connected with some aspects of his or her life--or laundry list.</p>
<p>Cheers, A student with a laundry list of activities pursued to impress colleges isn't what top colleges consider a desireable well-rounded applicant. However, by many people's standards, such a student would be considered well rounded.</p>
<p>However, what top colleges consider desireable well rounded students are the rare ones who avidly pursue a variety of activities with skill and impact and out of sheer interest and passion, not to trybto impress colleges.</p>
<p>I think the best quote was from one of the Ivy (can't remember which one) Deans of Admissions: "We don't want well-rounded individuals; we want a well-rounded class."</p>
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what top colleges consider desireable well rounded students are the rare ones who avidly pursue a variety of activities with skill and impact and out of sheer interest and passion, not to trybto impress colleges.
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<p>I don't disagree with this, Northstarmom, but it's an interesting idea to think about in light of the strenuous arguments that are going on in other threads about whether or not Asian Americans are discriminated against in the college admissions process.</p>
<p>From what my daughter (a white girl with lots of Asian friends) tells me, choosing academic or extracurricular pursuits specifically to enhance college admissions chances rather than out of a passion for the subject is considered entirely acceptable -- indeed, even admirable -- in Asian American circles. The idea that one should do things "out of sheer interest and passion" may be culturally biased toward whites.</p>
<p>Carolyn, (or anyone for that matter) how much weight do you think the recommendations have? I know of one counselor who claims she was told it was her recommendations for a couple of students that put them over the edge into the acceptance pile. Just curious if this might be true.</p>
<p>"From what my daughter (a white girl with lots of Asian friends) tells me, choosing academic or extracurricular pursuits specifically to enhance college admissions chances rather than out of a passion for the subject is considered entirely acceptable -- indeed, even admirable -- in Asian American circles. The idea that one should do things "out of sheer interest and passion" may be culturally biased toward whites. </p>
<p>I'm sure that it's culturally biased toward people who were raised in this culture and are thoroughly familiar with how our higher education system works now.</p>
<p>Most people -- no matter what their ethnicity -- have no idea how places like HPY select their students. Things have changed so much in the last 30 years that even HPY alum with kids who are applying often don't know how the system works. The BWRK (bright, well rounded kids) were higly desireable at HPY when I applied in 1968. Things have changed a lot since then.</p>
<p>From what I've seen of the U.S. in general, most people don't pursue their intellectual interests and EC interests out of sheer interest and passion. Even many adults don't do this. Instead, they may choose their activities based on what they think will help them get ahead on the job or what will lead to careers in which they can make big bucks.</p>
<p>From what I've seen of immigrant Asians and their offspring compared with other students, their parents are more likely to force them not to pursue ECs like art or football or academic interests like the humanities. The same actually seems to be true for other immigrants, who often overcame great hardship to come here, so want their kids to enter professions in which they are likely to be financially secure.</p>
<p>The Asians, however, stand out because probably the majority of Asians now in the U.S. are fairly recent immigrants due to the changes in the immigration standards around 1965 or so. The Eastern European immigrants and African and Caribbean immigrants who steer their kids in similar ways don't stand out as much because there are so many others of their races who are considering other majors and have more varied ECs.</p>
<p>There's a senior boy I know who must have started high school determined to be "the most involved student ever." He's very very smart -- great grades, high rank, solid test scores. He's involved in at least 12 school clubs/activities, ranging from student council to the theater to gay/straight alliance. During the weekly 45-minute "student activity" time, he practically runs from club to club, spending 10 minutes at each one. I recently learned he's also very involved in his church's youth group. While he dabbles in some of these, he is also president of several things and has impressive involvement in others. Sometimes I think his desire to be part of everything is almost a mania; other times I wonder if he just genuinely wants to be really really involved in HS life.</p>
<p>He's applying to prestigious LACs in the NE. Since he is the polar opposite of the kid who exhibits passion for one or two activities, I am really curious to see how his application is received. Of course, since I didn't read his essays or recs, I'm not privy to the whole package. </p>
<p>So, how would colleges treat a kid like this?</p>
<p>American whites perhaps, European whites, no. Similar to Asia, Europe has a strict stratified educational system. Students are not rewarded for ECs. They are rewarded for superlative academic performance--only. My son is applying to a few UK universities. No 'activity' list required. One letter of recommendation--mostly to determine if he is suitable for residence halls. One essay. Senior exam grades. Period.</p>
<p>New Asian immigrants don't know enough about high level admissions to push ECs. Often, their English isn't good enough to participate in sites like this. They push superlative academic performance and not only because they want to succeed in America. Asian families place enormous value on higher academics including music--and have done so (successfully) for thousands of years. </p>
<p>Reading CC threads complaining about pushy American parents confirms this tradition. Asian kids are not complaining about too many ECs.</p>
<p>Cheers,
That's what I'm saying: Eastern European immigrants, African immigrants, Caribbean immigrants and their offspring tend not to focus on ECs (or focus on very academic ECs that relate to things like math) and also tend to plan to be premed or perhaps prelaw. </p>
<p>They, however, don't stand out in the pool as seeming to be similar to each others because they are within much larger pools of white or black students who are much more dissimilar from each other. </p>
<p>For instance, the Nigerian-American high scoring , high stat kid who is in Mu Alpha Theta and National Honor Societyand wants to be an engineer or doctor will stand out in a good and unusual way in a pool of black students because the majority of black students are African American and are likely to have lower stats and lack the math or science background to enter medicine or engineering. </p>
<p>Even if admissions officers at very competitive colleges notice a commonality among Nigerian American students, since there are relatively few African American students with stats high enough for places like Ivies, the admissions officers might not care that the Nigerian immigrant or Nigerian American students are very similar to each other. It's not as if Nigerian Americans are making up a large part of an individual college's population.</p>
<p>The Asian immigrants and their kids, however, stand out as being very similar to each other because the majority of Asians in the U.S. recently came to this country due to the changes in the immigration laws in the 1960s. Also, Asians are disproportionately represented many top colleges, something that isn't the case for black students. (I'm not sure about how the representation of white students reflects their representation in the general society).</p>
<p>Carolyn, (or anyone for that matter) how much weight do you think the recommendations have? I know of one counselor who claims she was told it was her recommendations for a couple of students that put them over the edge into the acceptance pile. Just curious if this might be true.>></p>
<p>There is no doubt that strong recommendations can make a positive difference. They won't get a kid whose stats are well under par in (by under par I mean not even in the ballpark); but they can often pull a well-qualified and sometimes a somewhat borderline candidate into the admit pile. </p>
<p>A caveat, however: A glowing recommendation that could have been written about any one of a thousand great students is not necessarily the same as a strong recommendation. A strong recommendation is one that makes the individual great student come alive and seem real for the admissions committee -- and sometimes that includes mentioning some areas of weakness as well as all the good stuff.</p>
<p>
I agree that it's a culturally biased notion, but I don't think it's biased toward any ethnic group -- I think it is a distinctly American cultural bias to a set of values that are picked up by immigrant groups as they assimilate. </p>
<p>When my daughter spent time living abroad, one thing she came back with was the realization that there really did exist a distinct American culture -- a set of values and expectations that those who are raised in the US tend to take for granted -- which is in fact so ingrained that she failed to recognize it until she was living in a different culture. </p>
<p>America was founded on the notion that "liberty" and the "pursuit of happiness" are inalienable rights on a par with life itself. I think our culture glorifies the rugged individualist; our historic & cultural heroes are pioneers, explorers, & inventors. Even the way we go about the college selection process exemplifies these values, with the emphasis on individual fit and pursuit of a dream college, as well as the expectation that the student will venture some distance from home. Ours is not a society that has much regard for the young person who elects to stay in their home community and follow in their parent's footsteps with the choice of career -- we are all about each kid defining and pursuing their own goals. </p>
<p>I did see that as part of the problem in the thread about discrimination against Asians in college admission. I think to someone raised in a culture which highly values respect for elders and tradition, and perhaps places greater value on one's status within the community than on the pursuit of individual happiness, the whole process is mystifying. With that mindset, it would seem inexplicable why a college would select a risk-taker with an uneven academic record over a student with a record of exceptional achievement following a prescribed track. But of course it is the quirky risk-taker who is seen as having more potential for future success by American cultural standards.</p>
<p>As to the Washington Post article, I think there is a problem with the word "passion" in that it is easily misinterpreted to signify the student who is intense and single-minded in the pursuit of an early-defined goal. I think what the ad coms really want to see is not the single-minded passion, but a somewhat disciplined and goal-oriented "pursuer of happiness" -- the kids who are comfortable in their own skins who are passionate about life and expends energy toward individually-defined interests. So the irony is that the more the students or parents try to guess what colleges want from them, and guide themselves by it, the farther they get from the more elusive standard of defining themselves as separate and unique individuals. </p>
<p>And of course there are no guarantees that the colleges will accept the quirky kids either... its just that their application tend to spark more interest. The colleges still also want kids who have demonstrated that they are also very smart and capable of performing extremely well in an academic environment -- which leads to a somewhat conflicted set of expectations, since getting A's in all the requisite college-prep courses requires a significant amount of compliance and respect for goals and standards set by others.</p>
<p>Very insightful post, calmom. Thanks!</p>
<p>"A strong recommendation is one that makes the individual great student come alive and seem real for the admissions committee -- and sometimes that includes mentioning some areas of weakness as well as all the good stuff."</p>
<p>I think this same principle applies to essays and every other aspect of the student's application. I think this also helps to explain why a few interests are more effective than a large laundry list of activities. Adcoms like to feel that they know something about the student and can relate. Of course, the whole process is just a pile of cr-p. This feeling that the student's app comes alive and seems real has little to do with the student's merit or chances of success.</p>
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When my daughter spent time living abroad, one thing she came back with was the realization that there really did exist a distinct American culture -- a set of values and expectations that those who are raised in the US tend to take for granted -- which is in fact so ingrained that she failed to recognize it until she was living in a different culture.
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<p>Exactly! That's why travelling or living abroad is so mind-expanding.</p>
<p>Race is getting flogged on a couple of other threads, but I want to ask you, NSM:</p>
<p>1) Is the expectation of 'passion' applied to AfAm applicants? Can 'passion' in a black male candidate overcome poor stats the way it can for a white male candidate?</p>
<p>2) Besides the Nigerians, are there other African ethnic groups which value education? How did the Nigerian values evolve? Why didn't that happen in other wealthy African nations?</p>
<p>"Race is getting flogged on a couple of other threads, but I want to ask you, NSM:</p>
<p>1) Is the expectation of 'passion' applied to AfAm applicants? Can 'passion' in a black male candidate overcome poor stats the way it can for a white male candidate?</p>
<p>2) Besides the Nigerians, are there other African ethnic groups which value education? How did the Nigerian values evolve? Why didn't that happen in other wealthy African nations?"</p>
<p>I don't think that passion in any candidate regardless of race can overcome poor stats. It can overcome stats that are toward the bottom of the range of acceptable stats, but it can't overcome stats that indicate that a student will not be likely to graduate from an institution.</p>
<p>Given a choice of a URM with strong stats, no passion and a URM with poor stats (particularly gpa), and wonderful passion and talents, most colleges will pick the first. Colleges -- particularly the most competitive private colleges -- want to accept students who'll graduate, keeping those colleges' graduation rates as high as 97% of all students, and as high as about 95% for black students.</p>
<p>Black African immigrants in general are "model minorities" , do very well financially here, earn a lot of doctorates. The only reason that I singled out Nigerians is that due to their high population in Africa, they are, I believe, the majority of the African immigrants. I believe that Nigeria is the most populous African country. Most of the African immigrants whom I know and have interviewed are Nigerian, too.</p>
<p>From what my Nigerian friends have told me, students who emmigrate to go to college abroad may have been literally sponsored by their whole village, which would select the most intelligent and hard working youth in that village for that opportunity. Do to this kind of selection process, of course such people tend to do very well here.</p>
<p>As one of my Nigerian friends told me (He had a doctorate, and his mother was trying to get him to also get a law degree!), even though he came to this country and had to work as a dish washer to help pay his way through school, if he hadn't excelled academically, he would have been so shamed that he would have felt that suicide was the only option.</p>
<p>If you look in my back posts, there are some with more info about this subject including stats and, I think, links to the achievements of black African immigrants.</p>
<p>BTW: Older S had a 1410 on the old SAT, and an unusual somewhat academic-related passion that had gotten him international attention. He also had a 2.9 unweighted gpa in an IB program, and was (justifiably in my opinion) rejected by Columbia, though accepted by Vandy and Michigan. He chose to go to a tier 2 that offered him virtually full merit aid, and he promptly flunked out because he was pursuing his passion through a campus EC, but didn't bother to go to class even though his major was related to that EC.</p>
<p>A thought on the "recommendations" tangent to this thread--essentially confirming carolyn's observations: it's helpful to put yourself in the place of an admissions officer who reads hundreds of recommendation letters. </p>
<p>At elite institutions, the narrative descriptions in such letters are almost uniformly positive. Some are eloquent, use powerful language, and and mention specific incidents or activites: ". . . she can not only master detail, but is remarkable at forging sytheses. I remember particularly one of her class presentations, presented shortly after she saved the lives of three children, in which . . . ." Others are just generically positive: ". . . this student is among the best I've had, she is very bright, articulate, and works well with others." But it's hard to tell if the differences between such letters reflect the abilities of the student or those of the recommendation writer. </p>
<p>In my experience a well-written, glowing recommendation CAN help to elevate a candidate slightly, particularly when they confirm something that's hinted at elsewhere in the application. But because there are so many unknowns, LORs are not at the top of the list in importance. And a positive, but generic recommendation is pretty much of a wash--doesn't hurt, but doesn't help either. A lot of selective schools will rate recommendations as "important" and not "very important" in the Common Data Sets; I think there's often more in that distinction than meets the eye.</p>
<p>
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From what I've seen of the U.S. in general, most people don't pursue their intellectual interests and EC interests out of sheer interest and passion. Even many adults don't do this. Instead, they may choose their activities based on what they think will help them get ahead on the job or what will lead to careers in which they can make big bucks.
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NSM, I usually agree with everything you write but this time I have to disagree. </p>
<p>I think most kids are started in an activity because the parents think the child will enjoy it or seen to have an aptitude for it. The child continues with the activity because they enjoy doing it. </p>
<p>I started D in a pre-ballet class at age three, mainly to help her develop better posture than her mother. She LOVED everything about ballet (the movements, the costumes, the music, performing on stage ) and now at age sixteen she still LOVES it. Since age nine she has spent the better part of each summer attending ballet summer intensive programs knowing that she will probably never be a ballerina, but she still LOVES to dance. And every little ballerina-in-waiting knows there is absolutely NO money in ballet.</p>
<p>NSM, I totally agree with your assessment of Nigerians immigrants and Nigerian-Americans regarding their views on education.</p>
<p>I agree with edad>> This whole process is a "pile of cr*p".</p>
<p>Isn't the Washington Post the alternative ranking system that said Penn State University was the third best college in the country?</p>