<p>i've heard this term thrown around, i know it is common at public schools to use intro math, physics, chem classes to drop some kids. is the rigor really that hard or is it just a question of eliminating those who wont put forth effort into school? i'll be in the top 25%for SAT scores for all the schools i'm applying to (gtech, u of m, rice, mit, illinois, duke, washu, utexas,cmu) and obviously have worked my butt off to get where i am? i dont intend to drop my work ethic/drive when i go to college, so should i have a reason to be concerned about these weeders? is it possible to work and study hard but still get weeded out?</p>
<p>You shouldn't have to much trouble considering your SATs, a few teachers at my school have 60% fail rates though.</p>
<p>it's not that hard. We've all been here before: that is, being really anxious intimidated by the weeders. You'll do just fine..</p>
<p>Weeder classes only weed out people who don't put much effort. If you actually study, there is no way that you will fail.</p>
<p>i should have omitted 'anxious' in my previous post*</p>
<p>
[quote]
Weeder classes only weed out people who don't put much effort. If you actually study, there is no way that you will fail.
[/quote]
This is false. If the class fails 60% of people, it's easy to fail even with lots of effort.</p>
<p>
[quote]
This is false. If the class fails 60% of people, it's easy to fail even with lots of effort.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Perhaps your school is harder than mine. I haven't saw a single class at my school that has failure rate of 60%.</p>
<p>I think the disagreement is now hinging on what we mean by the word 'fail'. I too have never been in a class where 60% of the class literally fails (as in they actually get an 'F'). </p>
<p>However, I have been in classes where 60% of the class would not proceed to the subsequent class in the following semester. Some of them was due to the fact that they actually failed. However, a larger portion was voluntary: while they didn't fail, they didn't exactly do all that well either, and their mediocre performance discouraged them from staying in the major. For example, if you get a C or (especially) a D, while you can still proceed to the next class, you probably won't. A grade like that is a quite strong signal that you should probably leave the major. That is, at least to me, a "de-facto fail". </p>
<p>Hence, using that larger definition of the word 'fail', I would tend to agree with Payne. Plenty of people can work extremely hard, and nonetheless end up with a mediocre grade that convinces them to leave the major.</p>
<p>Everything takes a certain amount of natural ability and hard work. Few experience anything but mediocre success through either alone.</p>
<p>Yea, the 60% "failure" rate simply doesn't happen. I'm not saying it has never happened, but the run-of-the-mill freshman weeder class will never see rates that high. To define failure, I will consider D's and F's as failing. Since many majors and course sequences consider D's as non-passing, that is a fair assumption. I have seen data on grades in typical freshman classes in a so-called weeder school, and the rate of D's and F's is roughly 20%. If you consider people who drop the class, then the total rate might be as high as 30%. </p>
<p>In addition, a large percentage of the class (30%) or so might receive a C. Therefore, if you group all of the "poor" grades together, you might actually achieve a rate of 60% of people who do poorly. What you really have to worry about is the difficulty in achieving an A or B, and not necessarily failing. There are many classes in which the rate of A's are less than 10%, and the rate of B's isn't more than 20%. At the top engineering schools, being in the top 30% becomes a lot harder than it was in high school. </p>
<p>In reality, if you have both the intelligence and the work-ethic, there is not much to fear. The point of the weeder classes is to eliminate the ones who don't have either (although it takes a good bit of both to succeed).</p>
<p>
[quote]
Yea, the 60% "failure" rate simply doesn't happen. I'm not saying it has never happened, but the run-of-the-mill freshman weeder class will never see rates that high. To define failure, I will consider D's and F's as failing. Since many majors and course sequences consider D's as non-passing, that is a fair assumption. I have seen data on grades in typical freshman classes in a so-called weeder school, and the rate of D's and F's is roughly 20%. If you consider people who drop the class, then the total rate might be as high as 30%.
[/quote]
Something like this is professor specific usually (not course specific). My school has several teachers like this (in different departments thankfully). But really, for certain professors it's expected for their to be a 50% fail (ie: F) rate. If you get a D- people will applaud you.</p>
<p>What classes are those, Mr Payne?
I could see in, say, the humanities, how professors could rightfully? deny students good marks for good work, but how can a math professor fail any student who does the work right? With few exceptions, the scientific subjects are... well... science, and not art. There's not much room for taste.</p>
<p>Dynamics, Thermo, Fluids, Calc, some CSC classes, some EE classes. Like I said, it depends on the prof mainly. If the average grade is 50% on the test and the professor doesn't curve, sure it's very possible. If the class has a pass/fail final - that will do it at as well.</p>
<p>quicksilver4133:
they could just make the questions very very hard, to the point where doing them would be very difficult, and borderline above the class.</p>
<p>Weeder classes really depend on the work put forth. The material is NOT hard (calc, physics, etc). </p>
<p>My calc classes were horrible (test score-wise), but that wasn't because they were hard. It was due to the fact that no one studied until after the test.....</p>
<p>Just do your work; you'll do fine.</p>
<p>I agree people make a big deal out of weeder classes....the material is not that difficult. if you put in the time and effort you should be fine. and there are always the Cs and Ds in every class, no matter how easy they are.</p>
<p>Out of curiosity of a HS senior, any weeder stories?
Like how many did any of you see dropped out after grades were first posted?</p>
<p>Mr Payne, what college are you going to? 50% seems like quite a number considering that if its a top college the type of student that gets accepted there? </p>
<p>Anyhow, on those classes you mentioned, it looks like they are classes that require a decent knowledge of calc (especially dynamics, heat transfer.)</p>
<p>Then again, most students nationwide don't take calc in high school so it could be that.</p>
<p>I remember my introductory Physics sequence. The initial class was 45 students at the beginning of Fall semester. By midterms, it was down to 35, by finals, down to 25. At the beginning of Spring semester, there were 15, and by the end, there were 7. Of those 7, 6 had initially wanted to be Physics majors, but by the end, there were only 3.</p>
<p>I'm not gonna call Mr. Payne a liar, but I think he is basing his assessment on hearsay and rumors. </p>
<p>Failure rates ("F") exceeding 50% simply don't happen. If he wishes to back up his claim, then he is welcome is reply with the name of his school, and the course numbers and professors where these failure rates are happening. I'll be happy to do my best to verify his claims. </p>
<p>During undergrad, I had plenty of professors who had extremely high standards for performance (including the types of classes you listed). I went to a notorious weeder school, and have seen grade distributions that never came close to 50% F rate. While average test scores of 50% or less were very common, the failure rates never reflected these scores. Professors would be under intense pressure from the administration to not consistently fail such a large number of students.</p>