<p>sooz & others: You're right, he is who he is and he framed it nicely in the application. Maybe it will fly, maybe it won't -- but he wouldn't change just to present a better "package." Stanford's his only "reach" and he certainly doesn't have his heart set on it.</p>
<p>POIH: No, we won't qualify for FA. Supposedly admission is "need-blind" but it will be interesting to see how that all plays out this year w/ greater need and less money funding endowments.</p>
<p>According to Harvard president the university always draws 5% of Endowment for the expednditure so the larger the endowment the more number of students it can fund. If the % of FA applicants increases and % of the funds available decreases then the only conclusion might be that full paying student might get an edge.</p>
<p>You need to take into account the HYPS endowments always have edged out Dow in performance. But the September/October meltdown had been so broad that even HYPS endowment have been hampered badly. So HYPS have never been in this situation before, so students can be surprised come April.</p>
<p>I will say that my well-rounded daughter exhibited leadership and passion in several areas. I think that her application showcased that. Her scores were quite high, though none were perfect, and she did have a very demanding courseload in which she certainly excelled.<br>
Though she was accepted to Harvard and Columbia (which also takes only about 9%), there were other Ivies that she did not get into, nor did she get into Wash U where she was waitlisted. (She did not opt to stay on the waitlist.) </p>
<p>By the way, Harvard is need-blind. Financial aid does not factor into admissions decisions.</p>
<p>
[quote]
But the September/October meltdown had been so broad that even HYPS endowment have been hampered badly. So HYPS have never been in this situation before, so students can be surprised come April.
[/quote]
Nahhhh.... I disagree. You really don't have to worry about the top schools in terms of endowment dollars. Even with the downturn in the economy they will be fine. It's all the hundreds of other colleges and universities - especially the ones that started out with smallish endowments. HYPS, etc. will all stay need-blind and meet full need, no worries there.</p>
<p>^^^Agree!!</p>
<p>Well, anxiousmom and soozievt, I'd have thought the same thing, but I just read this article: Dartmouth</a> latest college to announce cuts - The Boston Globe</p>
<p>Harvard, the richest of the rich, is acknowledging that they have been hurt by the downturn. Dartmouth, Cornell, BU and others have announced hiring freezes and even staff cuts. They all seem to be trying to save Financial Aid, but at this point I think we can never say never, no matter the school.</p>
<p>Sorry to divert the thread away from the original point.... back to our well-rounded topic!</p>
<p>Well, at the beginning of that article in The Globe, they mention that the cuts are to PREVENT cuts in financial aid. I really do believe that some of the top schools such as Ivies which in the past year have increased FA for lower income and middle income students will continue and follow through with this initiative. As can be seen in that article, the cuts will pertain to other things such as new buildings, so as NOT to impact the financial aid they give out.</p>
<p>Also, just as an aside, I have a kid at an expensive private school: NYU. Not only did she get a very substantial four year scholarship, but in the past few months, one at a time, three new scholarships have appeared on her statement, one as recently as this week. I have no idea how she got these and these additional scholarships were not expected. She didn't apply for them or anything. They just showed up in the statement. So, I don't know what to say except some schools are being mighty generous. :D</p>
<p>Interestingly enough, I'm the OP and don't really mind the turn this thread took as it addresses a topic that I posted in the FA forum that went unanswered.</p>
<p>As much as DH and I are cringing at the toll the financial crisis took on our college and retirement savings, we won't qualify for financial aid and a private school tuition is still most likely doable. I don't however think that puts us at any advantage this year as I'm assuming a "need blind" admission has an oversight board to ensure it is in-fact need blind.</p>
<p>SoCalGal...I truly believe that schools that say they are need blind, really are. Both my kids applied as FA applicants and both got into the majority (but not all) of their very selective colleges on their lists and so it didn't seem to hurt to be a FA applicant and they were awarded aid at each school. I would not worry if you checked the FA box on the application to a need blind school at all.</p>
<p>EDIT...upon rereading your post, I see your son is not applying for FA...well, anyway, I'll leave my post for others. :)</p>
<p>Thought just occurred to me- "jack of all trades and master of none". A well rounded student who is competitive for HYPS often achieves the second highest level of many EC's- good enough to make state in music or athletics or other fields but not as a professional, or top 10/top 100 but not the prize winner in the nation... A reason for a "hook" is to increase the odds of standing out in the crowd of these high achievers. There are far too many well qualified students for the spots available- as shown by kids who get into grad school after being rejected as an undergrad (congrats to your D, soozievt). Thanks for the appreciation in a post- I'm currently being criticized for spelling errors (by a mother) and issues (by a student) in my home state U thread- glad I switched to this and got my ego stroked (aside- stress levels down when hypercritical son is away at college- there is a reason they leave home when they grow up, or actually before they fully mature). Another thought- and then I will drink my wine- howcum all the schools want to know what a student will contribute to the campus when the whole deal is that the student pays enormous amounts of money for what the school can do for him/her? TGIF</p>
<p>
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There are far too many well qualified students for the spots available- as shown by kids who get into grad school after being rejected as an undergrad (congrats to your D, soozievt).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Hmm, I may have been misunderstood as that did not happen to my D. She is in grad school at MIT but never applied there as an undergrad. She did not get into any grad schools that rejected her as an undergrad. Actually she got rejected at one grad school (Penn) that accepted her as an undergrad. :)</p>
<p>" Another thought- and then I will drink my wine- howcum all the schools want to know what a student will contribute to the campus when the whole deal is that the student pays enormous amounts of money for what the school can do for him/her?"</p>
<p>Most colleges in the country put little if any weight on students' extracurriculars when it comes to admission. Finding students who'll be likely to graduate is the main task of their admissions officers. Such colleges have advisors to help students develop skills and the confidence to handle extracurriculars.</p>
<p>Particularly when it comes to the very top colleges, a big part of what those colleges can offer students is the opportunity to be around brilliant, independent, talented, and supremely involved peers who will inspire them, teach them, and also work shoulder to shoulder with them in extracurricular activities that are student run and often operate at a professional level. </p>
<p>At Harvard, for instance, students run more than 50 community service programs including some that students have written grants to create; students run a daily newspaper, including supervising the paid adult employees who operate the printing press; produce more than 40 theater productions a year including some that are written by students; field more NCAA division 1 teams than does any other college, etc.</p>
<p>Go here and take a look at the variety of activities that exist there: Harvard</a> College :: student life</p>
<p>When I taught at a 2nd tier college that was twice the size of Harvard College, I was surprised at how little work the students did in their campus ECs, and how much the advisors were doing. I also was surprised at how most students weren't interested in participating in campus organizations. Sure, they'd happily go to parties, sports games, and attempt to pledge frats and sororities, but they didn't get excited about, for instance, putting out a newspaper or doing other extracurriculars. In fact, they often had to be bribed with extra credit to even do things like attend campus arts events or join activities related to their majors. Even when they loved their ECs and were talented at them, they had to be begged to take on leadership positions.</p>
<p>S describes similar things at the very nice second tier LAC he attends.</p>
<p>That's why what places like HPYS offer students is a wonderful and rare opportunity of being around peers who think it's fun to do ECs, and do them at a high level. Even after they graduate and go into the "real world", they are unlikely to be around a large group of people who care enough about things to use their free time to avidly and successfully pursue those interests.</p>
<p>I just tried a long post, here's a revision. First of all, sorry S-VT, I only skimmed posts and didn't pay attention to acceptances, just school attended. My howcum point was missed- it's a seller's market for elite schools and they can make students jump through hoops to get accepted. HYPS could pick an equally good class many times over from the students they have to reject.</p>
<p>I disagree that HYPS are the rare schools to offer many excellent opportunities for EC's with peers- many posters can offer lists of EC's generated by student interest at other top schools. I also discount the value of those EC's for some who attend college with an academic passion and not to schmooze with others in formal organizations (journalists and business majors are different from scientists). Many other schools offer unique research opportunites and different personalities are suited to different activities. I have noted physicians who went to MIT/Harvard or such for undergrad or medical school who are no smarter or intellectual than some who went elsewhere. There are many equally brilliant students scattered amongst many other institutions who find an intellectual peer group at their college/university. Most colleges may not, but there are schools outside of HYPS that also offer excellent opportunities. NSM discussed a second tier experience, not a first tier just below HYPS in reputation. Also, any list of EC's et al can't show the actual activity- some things look good on paper but the reality is different.</p>
<p>The important message is that HYPS are not the only places to get a top education for the nation's best and brightest. The top student who does not go to HYPS is not sunk. Think outside the box defined by those schools. I would have more respect for them if they, like MIT does I believe, admitted solely on merit and not on any legacy or other politicized status. A last thought- where are those grad students TA'ing those HYPS students coming from? Or their professors? A key point is the use of words- not absolutes but words that allow for exceptions to generalizations.</p>
<p>"I disagree that HYPS are the rare schools to offer many excellent opportunities for EC's with peers- many posters can offer lists of EC's generated by student interest at other top schools. "</p>
<p>Where I think the schools like HPYS is the quality of the ECs that are truly student-run, the high percentage of students who spend lots of time in ECs that are not related to their career plans, and the numbers of students who spend lots of time in ECs that aren't mainly social things like Greek life. </p>
<p>For instance, at the Harvard Crimson, even though Harvard has no journalism major, students get no extra credit or pay for being on the paper, and few students want to be journalists, students avidly compete to get on the staff, which means that students have to do lots of work for the paper in order to have a chance of being voted onto the staff. The paper also is produced 5 days a week. </p>
<p>And, the Crimson is just one of the student publications. There's also a weekly newspaper, a humor magazine, a literary journal, a quarterly book review journal, a twice yearly film journal, and probably other publications that I'm unaware of.</p>
<p>By comparison, when I taught journalism at a second tier college twice the size of Harvard, I had to literally bribe newspaper journalism majors with extra credit to get them to work for their weekly school paper. Despite the fact that the editors' positions paid and were very useful to students' getting internships and other jobs in the field, I had to beg students to apply for them. At my S's second tier LAC, the monthly newspaper hasn't come out for months because students can't be found who'll work for it.</p>
<p>Examples of activities that students did and started for fun at Harvard: directed and produced a musical in their dorm (purely done for fun. Harvard lacks a theater or drama major, yet there are dozens of student-produced and directed theatrical performances each year); spotlighted a then obscure Japanese director by hosting a series of his films; created a yearbook to spotlight a segment of the student body....</p>
<p>NSM, I agree with you as well, but also with wis.....that the kinds of kids who attend very selective colleges as a WHOLE tend to be very engaged in extracurriculars, and other things...be it research or community service and the like, more than the students as a WHOLE at less selective universities. But I agree with wis that HYPS don't have a hold on this and that there are many schools with this type of student body. I think you made a contrast between Harvard and the college where you used to work or even the school your younger son now attends. I believe that contrast is very apt. But there are a lot of schools in between those. </p>
<p>And before someone at a state U jumps in.....these are GENERALIZATIONS about the student body as a WHOLE, not individuals. I have seen it myself in my own family. My own kids were involved 24/7 at college way way beyond their academic classes. Their ECs were huge committments. They would never dream of not doing these ECs. The ECs do not have an end goal either. And I can say that at D1's university (happened to be an Ivy), that all of her peers were also heavily engaged in ECs. I recall my D telling me how she was up at 5:30 AM on school days to go to her EC (a sport that practiced out of state in the AM before classes!) and as she was having breakfast in the dorm in her suite, her pal was coming home at 5:30 AM from her job as editor at the school newspaper (girl doesn't intend to be a journalist). When I went to the admitted student open house at her school, I recall sitting in on a panel of students who when they got up to introduce themselves, they mentioned all the things they were involved in at their school and it was a LOT and I immediately thought to myself, my kid will SO fit in here! She wasn't an exception, but she was the rule. She spent countless hours in ECs at college and so does my other kid. </p>
<p>I will contrast that with my niece who went to an out of state flagship university. She is a good student. She was not involved in any ECs at all (except she had a job and she partied a lot). She just graduated and doesn't have much on her resume either. And back in HS, she wasn't involved in ECs either. Great kid. Different type of experience.</p>
<p>Soozie, I'll jump in to say that I agree, as you say, your daughter was also at a selective school, in fact it was an Ivy. This is probably true of all of the selective schools. My kids have a good friend at Wash U where kids are involved in all kinds of ECs. Certainly it's not just HYPS that have a hold on this. I will say though, that at H, many (if not most) put their ECs (most of which are very competitive just to join - there's a process called "comping") ahead of their academics. I've never seen anything quite like it.</p>
<p>twinmom, I definitely think Harvard is like that and most there are involved in that way you describe!! </p>
<p>That's the thing...even with my own two kids.....their ECs are not like "extras" but they take on the same amount of time and devotion and are of great importance next to the academics....I would not say they are below it but at least on par! </p>
<p>Now my oldest is in grad school and her life has radically changed. No more ECs. One thing is that she is used to having every waking hour scheduled and that has continued....now she spends 24/7 at her studio at school. But the ECs that took on such importance in her life are over. :(</p>
<p>My other D is a senior in college and her ECs are HUGE time committments and take on GREAT importance in her life and are competitive to just get into. However, in her case, her ECs are related to her career (not the case with D1).</p>
<p>Soozie, that's architecture school - luckily actually being an architect is not nearly as all-consuming as being an architecture student.</p>
<p>The discussion of ECs is interesting Carnegie Mellon seems to be somewhere in between. Some clubs are as time consuming as classes (game creation club), others can't get enough participation (student government).</p>