<p>But ranking does matter. For example, in Texas, the top 10% by rank get a place in the UT system, and in CA, the top 4% by rank get a place in the UC system.</p>
<p>So how it's done also matters.</p>
<p>I'll throw in another hitch. Our HS of 800 kids per year ranks, giving due consideration to Ap classes. While AP geography and AP psych are easier than AP calclus, chem, etc., one just accepts this. However, for the student taking classes at CC, not weighted as heavily. (not included in rank)
Ex., S took 6 AP classes at HS in junior year fall term, and 5 classes at CC. He lost his #1 rank to student taking all 7 classes at HS. In senior year, he would only have one class at HS (AP Eng), and everything else at CC. Heavens knows what would have happened to his rank. Wisely, he didn't wait around to find out.</p>
<p>Bookworm, I know nothing about the CC your son went to - I am only speaking about my local area: here, the local UNIVERSITY (not even a CC!) - a fourth tier, regionally, not nationally, ranked school - is MUCH easier than the local high school <em>regular</em> classes, not to mention AP! I have volunteered there for many years, helping students in all fields, and I have seen "A" papers that I would be ashamed if my child turned them in in middle school - or at all.</p>
<p>At least with APs, there is a standardized, nationwide test. With local CCs and universities, the quality is all over the place.</p>
<p>I do sympathize, however; my S was in your S's position - he took a course at an Ivy League school that the high school didn't weight!</p>
<p>Burlmom -- Our school district last year offered kids the option of taking Band (and, I believe, Chorus and Orchestra) as an Honors course; there are additional requirements for these kids. These include but aren't limited to attendance at 2 concerts/semester,
a journal, review of articles, audition for Honors bands in the area/region/state, etc.
On the other hand, I always encouraged my kids to participate in Band as well as to enroll in any other courses they desired even if these were not Honors or AP.</p>
<p>Jamimom -- Our school district's policy states that the val and sal must have been in the high school for at least 2 years.</p>
<p>That is why so many vals do not get into the very top schools. Being a val really depends a lot on the rules of the school. In a large school where the kids are so closely clustered, it becomes really a useless exercise. Throw in college courses, which as Nedad points out can vary in standard, and transfers into a school, and it is really up in the air who the true val should be.</p>
<p>As I have said in previous posts, our high school does not weight and does rank. However, a val or sal are never named as we usually have a dozen or so kids who have 4.0. When it comes to awarding GPA or rank based scholarships, they internally rank the kids with 4.0 based on the difficulty of their courses. The newspaper prints a special section with the top 4% of each high school grad class in the county so top students are recognized that way. Also, we are in Madison, WI and kids often take classes at UW that are difficult but are not calculated as part of the GPA. Overall, I think our system works well. Kids are not over competitive, are able to take classes that interest them either in high school or at the university. High acheivers are adequately recognized and students get accepted to great schools. I think everyone makes this more complicated than it really needs to be.</p>
<p>And, at the risk of being flamed, I wonder if this is more of an issue to the parents than it is to the kids. These discussions are always on the parents board but I don't see them on places where kids regularly post. I know it is an issue for some kids, but I think parents get much more worked up about it than students. Just my opinion.</p>
<p>I don't know whether it is more for the parents than the kids. I know kids were worked up about it whereas their parents are not. I work with alot of families, and the parents are more worried about where and if they kids get into college, the aid package, and not whether the kid is val, sal or not. Not to say that there are not such parents. </p>
<p>Many times the parents get over involved in some of these issues as a result of their children's interest or obsession. I know in sports and in theatre, there are the overzealous parents, yes, but there are also those who are pushy because they want their baby to be happy. That is all they want. Not always a healthy attitude either.</p>
<p>
[quote]
This is all so Byzantine.
I wonder what affect grade inflation has on all of this. Our daughter went to school in Canada up to middle school when we moved to the States. In most Canadian schools an "A" is an "A: and a "C" is really a "C", and I don't recall there being many of the problems mentioned in this forum.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The obvious problem is that there are no common grounds in grading policies. By following policies of non-ranking, deflated grades, arcane curriculum, some schools hurt the chances of their students; Through ridiculous weighing, grade inflation, multiple valedictorians, others engage in devious practices to try to game the system. This problem does not affect the schools that have developed long-term relationships with a set of colleges. Recognized preparatory and public schools could change their policies on a whim and the colleges would still be aware of the "value" of the pupils. The true problem exists at schools that are not so well-known. For those schools, the only message is conveyed by the transcript and school profile. Because of their lack of relationship with colleges, the transcripts and profiles are typically lacking and nebulous, or worse, erroneous. I think that it is fair to assume that an adcom won't spend much time analyzing a transcript that does not convey the information he wants to see. </p>
<p>A small note on Canadian schools ... It seems that some variances must exist among schools in Canada as well. There have been multiple reports -from Candian students- on CC that students earn an A for any grades above ... 80. To miss a B, a student has to score below a 69. </p>
<p>Lastly, it pains me to read posts such as the original post. I wish parents would see how fast grades lose much significance. While the grades assess comparative performances, their only value if to the individual who earned them. You would be surprised to know how little students discuss the grades of other students. We know that we have sized, measured, weighed for as long as we can remember. We also know that the system is not always fair, and have few options but accept it as it is. Since we know that our athletic or scholastic performances will not be equal, we like to look for other attributes when comparing our peers... you know the silly stuff like friendliness, loyalty, helpfulness! The faster one realizes that grades are a by-product of our education system and not its objective, the better off he will be!</p>
<p>Xiggi sorry it pains you that I am expressing my feelings. Please dont read my posts since this is a concern to you. I feel happy that I can share my thoughts and feelings and expressed that it just bought back some unhappy moments. I am glad I can express the types of thoughts here that I dont elsewhere..thats what these boards are for.</p>
<p>Xiggi, I have always liked and respected your posts, but you are WAY off base here if you really believe that we parents do not understand that "silly stuff [you didn't need the sarcasm here] like friendliness, loyalty, helpfulness" are more important in life.</p>
<p>The discussion is about a very, very REAL issue. I myself despise all this grading and ranking and endless nitpicking about how to get extra credit points, and wish we could all be educated as they used to be in England (readiing and discussion!), but we live here and now, and it matters VERY much to people without a lot of money to be eligible for various scholarships, etc. And with more and more colleges demanding class rank because of USNWR, we can't escape the fact that it matters.</p>
<p>You don't have to "wish parents" could see the world as you do, and see what real values are. We do. We may all wish for utopia - but in the meantime, those of us footing the bills for the rest of the country by paying taxes must be pragmatic - while at the same time, I would hope, explaining to our kids that grades do not define them.</p>
<p>Xiggi, it's just a vent. We all have our favorite ones, and sometimes they are silly to others.</p>
<p>Well said Nedad, thankyou...</p>
<p>Really we have moved on. But that paper just reared up some unhappy moments, and these forums are incredibly helpful in sharing thoughts and ideas.</p>
<p>Nedad, when I post, I always try to be honest and direct. I would invite you te reread my post, which I believe was not off-base. : my post was not sarcastic and did not contain anything suggesting that parents did not understand the values I described. I gave my hearfelt OPINION that students of my age view the grades in a different light than their parents. What I wished for this: "I wish parents would see how fast grades lose much significance.". Do your HS grades matter, a year after being admitted to college? Does it really matter who missed valedictorian by a .001? While I believe that the issues of grading policies are absolutely relevant WHEN someone is competing, I see little relevance in discussing the past, as the OP did. </p>
<p>Changing hats, I believe that I understand the REAL value of grades, ranking, and SAT scores. I believe that I have written enough posts on similar subjects for readers to know that I do understand what it takes to finance an education. </p>
<p>Angstridden, you are entirely correct that it is your right to post or vent about your frustrations. However, since you are posting in this forum to solicit reactions and replies, I have an equal right to comment. I am very familiar with your past posts and the subjects that have caused you "frustrations". You cannot expect everyone to read your vents and hollow promises to "move on" with unabated sympathy, especially since most of them suggest that the accomplishments of others seem to belittle your dayghter's.</p>
<p>Xiggi..I would appreciate your NOT responding to any of my posts in future. I have never belittled the accomplishments of others and I had moved on..but the letter perked up some bad feelings. Your comments are inaccurate and hurtful.</p>
<p>I am not sure what you are talking about Xiggi..so why dont you point out the post you are referring too. I do not recall at any time making comments that there were students with lesser qualifications in my daughters honors program. IN FACT..I was thrilled she got in the honors program. Because despite her high GPA she did not have a super high SAT. She had a lower SAT than the norm in the program. So do point out the post so I can be reminded of it.</p>
<p>Angstridden wrote:
"Xiggi..I would appreciate your NOT responding to any of my posts in future."</p>
<p>In all due respect, Angstridden, since you started a thread with a vent of an experience, Xiggi is free to respond with his thoughts. If his response causes you to feel hurt, that may be so, but people are free to comment about what you posted so you need to be prepared for responses of all points of view if you start a thread. </p>
<p>I believe Xiggi meant that you still MAY be bitter about an experience your daughter had and while you may have thought you moved on, you still had some bad feelings about it that were recently dredged up. That appears to be fairly accurate, no? Last year, you vented when your daughter was denied at UNC and it hurt you and you did not let go for a while and hopefully have moved on now as she is so happy at UMD. </p>
<p>You are a mom and you are allowed to feel hurt for your child and feel free to vent here as this is a kind of sounding board. But just realize that when you do vent, you are opening yourself up to differing points of view and while those points of view may hurt, they are allowed. I don't think it is fair to ask people to NOT respond to your posts. You have often posted asking for help here and many have been supportive and have tried to help you with your questions with your girls. People are not always going to agree with you and yes, it may hurt.</p>
<p>I do recall posting however that I was disappointed that she did not recieve a scholarship from the State University attends. Though she was offered scholarships to alot of schools the University she attends did not offer one because of SAT cut offs. This I felt was unfair as she has DEMONSTRATED academic achievement. Most other kids that had much lower GPA's but possibly higher SAT's did get some scholarship dollars. Or they had sports which is held in higher esteem than ART (she was a merit scholar for art and academics) I feel and felt with her stellar academic record and EC's she should also have.
How is this belittling others?</p>
<p>Yeah Xiggi has the right to post. Just wish he wouldnt bother on my messages!
Yes at the time it was a painful experience. And yes we moved on..but then that paper dredged it up.
To see very clearly that the Val has no AP's at all.....well you all know how I felt so I wont go there!</p>
<p>Angst, I'm not Xiggi and I can't answer to "belittling" as that was HIS comment. But I think when you start using "unfair" with some of these things, that is troublesome to some folks. With the val/sal thing, it is not truly unfair because that was the system in place and it is more that you don't agree with the system and appear to be disappointed for your daughter not being so recognized. But they were chosen fairly within the system in place. Then with the scholarship at UMD, you say it was unfair cause kids with lower GPAs got one and your D did not with a higher or stellar academic record but lower SATs than they had. Again, you are fine in arguing that GPA should maybe mean more that test scores (just like more difficult courses should be weighted for class rank purposes), but the criteria in place at UMD to give out scholarships, apparently did use SAT scores. Therefore, it is not truly UNFAIR, but you happen to just disagree with the criteria (and are entitled to your point of view). It might be more apt to say you are disappointed in these two matters but clearly they were not unfair practices. Each matter had criteria in place. </p>
<p>I understand, being a mother myself, how you want your child to be recognized and it may be disappointing when these things happen but ya gotta move on and look at the things she HAS accomplished. She is happy, is in a good college and so forth. </p>
<p>If perhaps you can just be disappointed for your child when things don't go her way, you might be better off. But if you see it as a competition and Johnny or Susie got what your D "deserved", that is where you are gonna run into hurt feelings. With your younger D, she is entering a very very competitive field. There WILL be disappointments. It won't be necessarily UNFAIR but just the way it goes. Some other kid is gonna get cast over your kid and your kid might be "better". It is hard being a mom and hard to see your kid disappointed, but if you take an outlook that she is reaching for her own personal goals and not in competition with the others, it will be easier.
Susan</p>
<p>Oh yeah Susan we know all about UNFAIR in the singing field already... We have had the non-working mic etc.
We have gotten used to how that works. </p>
<p>We just never thought about grades with the other daughter till the end of her junior year. The school system is implementing a change however..so that will be great for future kids including my other daughter.</p>
<p>I like the idea of reaching for personal goals..Is that what you do with your daughter - tell her to do her best and thats all she can do. We of course do that but you are in competition when you are trying out for shows etc.
I would enjoy your thoughts on your approach? I will say my daughter will come home and say how she did when she tries out and she will often compare her performance to others in a nice way. She will say so and so was not expressive, or he was off -key..
But never nastily, just matter of factly. I mean it seems like you have to be able to evaluate yourself relative to others in this business. Your thoughts are appreciated...</p>
<p>(BTW she just landed a great part in a show and says her dance lessons..she took dance when she was young and is very flexible quit and started back up again this fall ..really really paid off!...We also had some long chats about how the guitar and piano will be very helpful to her long term and we did some things so she is very much been enjoying it lately!)</p>