@CRHeel94 my daughter did the same: AB in 10th, BC in 11th, and online multivariate class in 12th (would have liked to skip AB but her highschool gives no exceptions for that). She is a CS major and compared to some others in her major is having an easier time in math classes.
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High schools which offer calculus only as a two year AB-then-BC sequence seem like they do that because so many of their students are over-accelerated in math. That sequence presumes that students reach calculus in 11th grade, or two grade levels ahead. Back in the old days, such students were strong students who could be reasonably assumed to be capable of completing BC (including the AB material) in one year immediately after precalculus, usually seeing it as an easy A grade and easy 5 on the AP test. But if most students are over-accelerated in math by pushy parents, then that assumption is no longer true, so the result is the forced two year calculus sequence, which may seem overly slow for those students who were appropriately two grade levels ahead in math (i.e. not over-accelerated to be two grade levels in math).
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This isnât the way it works, at least at our school. Calc AB follows Algebra 2/Trig (usually a 10th grade course if you did Algebra 1 in 8th grade and Geometry in 9th grade), thereâs no pre-calculus in between except for weaker students (who may follow it with Calc AB or AP Stats if they get that far). So for all intents and purposes you have a combined Pre-Calc/Calc AB course (which is hard and has more homework than any other high school course) followed by an easy year just taking Calc BC (in most cases making senior year more relaxed).
I think one reason for doing that in California may be to get the UC GPA boost of another AP course in 10th or 11th grade.
It is mistaken to assume that kids who take an additional math course before calculus are weaker students. For example, some kids would otherwise run out of math courses at their school before senior year if they didnât, some kids are required to take some sort of precalc or Algebra III, some kids who would rather wait to study linear algebra and/or multivariable calculus in a more rigorous college setting, some kids prefer a depth of knowledge to breadth of knowledge, etc., some kids may be incredibly strong students but werenât exposed to the same advanced material in middle school, etc. There are a host of reasons, but generally, regardless of their strength or weakness as students, kids (and parents) who arenât caught up with the notion of racing through whatever math curriculum is available may not end up beyond calculus by their senior year.
IMO, while the As-Accelerated-As-Possible math track may make sense from a college admissions perspective, and it may make sense for the extraordinarily rare math kid, most students would probably be better off focusing on mastery of the pre-calc and calc sequence in high school rather than racing ahead. This is especially true for those who will be pursuing math other STEM in college. Some STEM professors will candidly acknowledge this.
More traditional precalculus honors courses also typically get the honors point in UC GPA recalculations. It does not look like your schoolâs math sequence necessarily gains an additional honors point.
| School | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Your school | Algebra 1 | Geometry | Algebra 2 + Trigonometry | Precalculus + Calculus AB (UC honors) | Calculus BC (UC honors) |
| Other schools | Algebra 1 | Geometry | Algebra 2 | Precalculus (UC honors if honors) | Calculus AB or BC (UC honors) |
However, it does mean that if a student starts at standard level (Algebra 1 in 9th grade), the student could get to calculus AB in 12th grade (versus precalculus in 12th grade at other schools).
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There are benefits to get some of this stuff out of the way early during the high school years if you can. Donât need to stretch this out. I mean Calc BC by 10th or 11th. And then you can move on with other things â letâs you get to some of the AP Physics by 11th and/or 12th. It will free up your first year college schedule considerably if you are going to go into an Engg major. It depends on the kid, the school, the college etc ⊠The accelerated path is not without benefits. Among other things, your course selection priority at many large publics will depend on how many credits you came into the program with. This will make the difference between getting waitlisted vs getting the course you want on time in crowded majors.
I donât completely agree. My kid who was several years ahead never had trig. In order to take Calculus with a school change, trig was required. It was easily self learned. I told my kid, trig can be learned very quickly. A deep understanding of Algebra Iâd totally agree with. Pre-Algebra ( not so much). My other kid didnât have Pre-Algebra. No need. Tested out.
Iâm not saying that is true in every school. It is at our school. There are separate pathways with off-ramps for those who struggle.
The most advanced track is Enriched Geometry (usually 9th, but also available in the summer before 9th grade if you want to accelerate) then Alg 2/Trig then Calc AB then Calc BC with MVC/Linear Algebra available as a 12th grade option if you do Calc BC in 11th grade (or you can do AP Stats instead). About 10 kids a year (out of 400) do Calc BC as a junior.
Off ramps for those who start on the most advanced track are going to Alg 2 after 9th, Pre-Calc (which also covers Trig) after 10th, and in either case you can still do Calc AB or AP Stats in 12th grade. Non-advanced math students may start in Alg 1 and with the faster track get to Calc AB in 12th grade or with the slower track just get to pre-Calc or AP Stats.
In my daughterâs HS the kids on track for Calc AB in 10th were those accelerated to algebra 1 in 6th grade after taking a series of exams at the end of 5th (usually about a handful out of class of ~330 or so). Some of these kids may be over accelerated due to pushy parents. In my daughterâs case she would have been fine with skipping AB and going straight to BC but unfortunately the school is very strict in this regard. So she had some easy As and 5s by doing it over 2 years.
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Thank you I need to hear this every once in awhile. Due to Covid quirk son took Calc A/B and Calc C Sophomore year of HS. He took Diff E at CC this fall and decided not to take Linear Algebra this Spring. He will take Linear Algebra and AP Stats at his HS senior year. And I keep thinking he is decelerating, your post was a great reminder that is incorrect/possibly insane.
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My MIT kid (math major, not for nothing) was not what is considered âacceleratedâ by CC standards. No DE, no self study, no Khan Academy. He took his normal HS math track for kids who loved math which ended with BC Calc as a Senior (you could not take AB then BC, it was one or the other).
I donât know where this mania for showing up at college already having taken Diff Eq or Topology came from. And the idea that taking a hyper advanced math class in HS so you can âskipâ that subject in college- ??? Isnât that why you are IN college?
My kid did not take stats in HS (the non-calc kids took stats as seniors). He took it in college; I think his joke was that college statistics completes the HS AP Stats course in two weeks⊠and then on to the âgood stuffâ.
You donât need to be âcompetitiveâ (per the threadâs title). Your kid should love and enjoy what they are doing, and be understanding the concepts, doing well with a reasonable amount of effort and mental challenge. It is not a race. The world is not going to run out of math before your kid gets to college.
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I agree! I wasnât that advanced in math, but I pushed myself really hard academically in high school. Looking back on it, I wish I had chilled a little and developed my social skills.
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Love this.
I think there is a problem in math education in the US. Kids have different abilities and are often stuck for 12 years together ( frustrating for kids who need more help and those who have seen that equation 4x before). What happens is kids can often suffer through this for grammar school. As they reach middle school, they either need help or they need to accelerate or they are grade level.
For the kids who are accelerating, some are indeed pushed by parents. We found these kids often slow down the advanced math classes. Other kids take advantage of acceleration. Some schools actually have a path/track where the kids split off. For kids who are on an accelerated path early, they can find themselves post Calc before high school ends.
They have to take very advanced college classes (in order to have 4 years of math). Very few schools actually offer post Calc in HS. Those that do have a handful of kids in the class (unless itâs a huge school).
For kids who really are math kids, I donât think they want to skip it in order to skip it in college. At all. They just donât want to be bored out of their minds.
Our kids had a math club at school in the younger grades. Though the school didnât have an advanced track until 7th grade, there were a handful of kids in the club. These kids in high school were the ones who ended up in the most advanced math. The public doesnât offer Diff Eq etc so some went to private and some took classes via Khan or joined local math groups.
So, yes, there is a subset of mania where parents are pushing kids beyond their abilities to gain access to the âbestâ colleges. Or those who think taking advanced math is going to land their kid at MIT/CALTECH. But there are also kids for whom math is like water, it flows easily and everything makes sense to them. Those kids have a real issue with US math education. They hit a wall and need something to keep them interested. In our area, most end up at private schools who offer those post Calc classes, or they do competitive math competitions via public school.
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But again- a kid who hits a wall in a standard HS math curriculum doesnât need to âaccelerateâ per se. The world is a wondrous place- astronomy, genetics, stock market, (behavioral economics is a fantastic subject for a kid who loves math to explore-- and I believe Professor Auman who won the Nobel and essentially created the field of Game Theory is a mathematician) why the price of pork bellies goes up and down (and particularly relevant today- why gas prices are through the roof), agronomy, climate science-- all of these are math based fields.
Iâm not suggesting that a talented math student hitch his/her wagon to the âit takes two years to slog through Trigâ curriculum. Just that âAccelerationâ in math is something of a mania (as many of the posts here confirm). A kid doesnât NEED to accelerate in order to flesh out his/her love of, passion for math in HS.
A math kid can fall in love with baseball statistics and again- never run out of math. Itâs one thing to do the league stats like any weekend warrior. But once you get into the Michael Lewis level of regressions, it becomes something else entirely.
The entire world is filled with math. Itâs not a race to see who can get DE credits for Diff Eq before theyâre old enough to drive.
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I think you and @htas are pretty much saying the same thing but I want to underscore that - in my opinion - it should be kid-driven either way. Their love of math and their interests should lead the way and I believe parents shouldnât intervene to slow them down or speed them up.
My kid really wanted to accelerate and I supported that - he didnât skip any fundamentals but he wanted to keep going and wanted to move at a faster pace. He is still getting the highest grades in his math courses at our state flagship - yes, even before he could drive. He doesnât consider it a race and wouldnât appreciate it being referred to that way - it is just the right pace for him. So I agree that they donât âneedâ to accelerate but they also shouldnât be forced to find other ways to engage if that fits for them.
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Sounds like you are your son have figured it out.
I think the folks who have figured out the right pace, intensity, etc. DONâT post on an anonymous message board to find out how to make their kid competitive in math. So my post was directed at them- not at families like your own where everyone is happy with the chosen path!
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Really though, any responses should be directed to the OP in situations like this. Responding to hypothetical users only clogs the thread with flotsam. Best to avoid.
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Haha, well put and good point. I see that in some of the OP language, as well.
It was hard for me to read from you, OP, whether you are prestige hunting or trying to figure out how to get your kid into this world where they get more challenged and can find their path? I assume the latter? (Our town has a math circle but we didnât know about it for a while! And no one around here talks about those wonderful math summer math programs. And then suddenly when he found his way into that world, those opportunities opened up so much more.)
So if you are coming on here to look for the resources and doors to open up that world for your kid, yay. I wish this information would fall into the laps of the kids who want it but it doesnât always. Hopefully we have helped you?
This exchange also has me wonder something. I do have concern about students who are pushed into this world and lack the intrinsic interest. I wonder how many kids at these 50 hour a week programs are trudging through it from parental or otherwise pressure. I hope not many, that would be so difficult and sad.
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Thanks, everyone, for the REALLY great discussion. Iâm the original poster. We donât push our kids to do anything except to have some sort of focus. We are not math people, and frankly I think the field is one of the most difficult to stand out in, so I would actually encourage my kid to focus on some application of it if possible. We are of the philosophy that our jobs as parents are to keep all the doors open - itâs up to my kid if he wants to walk through that door. I can tell you from lengthy experience in my own life as well as working in higher education (not math), there are doors that shut much earlier that you would think. For kids that have no parents who care or even know to push those doors open, they lock on kids even earlier (hello equity?). Our kids go to public school (a great one, but public). That means the schools themselves care very little about acceleration or gifted kids - in fact, sometimes itâs a harder population for them to serve. My husband works in k-12, and I can tell you that public schools will tell you a million things - but the reality is they donât have enough math teachers at the higher level who can teach advanced kids - so they limit enrollment in those courses and you basically have to yell to have your kid included (or show them an AOPS or CTY transcript or something). Has nothing to do with kids or philosophy or curriculum - itâs a staffing issue. So the doors shut harder and earlier. My post initially came out of frustration of reading very ridiculous posts in other places about how to be competitive in math (and YES, as parents we do have to think about this if we want our kids the luxury of not thinking about it for a while). Iâm glad to hear those stories may be exaggerated. The reality is that it is a competitive world and getting more so - in math and everything else. There ARE things in this world that make you more or less competitive for those camps and colleges. My job as a parent is to know what they are, inform my kid, keep the door open as long as possible, so he can choose. Part of that IS knowing what the most competitive kids are doing and achieving. That was my original question (with a bit of need for reassurance thrown in).
On a personal note - My kid loves AOPS. We will continue in that (coupled with his extremely simplistic school curriculum) and he will likely do pre-calc in 9th grade, which is what he was on track to do. They donât offer any sort of math competitions here until high school, so he will try those then. He may decide to do something else, and thatâs good too. Thank you SO much for all your feedback and reassurance.
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Well said! Totally agree.