<p>yeah, i don't know what ppl mean by "great" or whatever so I just put "subjective" in the chances threads :)</p>
<p>about reading it, it really depends on whether your teacher lets you..</p>
<p>i think the best recs show particular scenarios of how wonderful you are, rather than stating that you're wonderful.</p>
<p>My counselor said that in her recommendation for me for ND, she said she wrote that if I didn't get in, she had her bags packed and was ready to drive to admissions office and raise hell. Now, I don't know if that was actually in the letter, but I take it as a sign that her letter was pretty darn good.</p>
<p>^ LOL That's pretty awesome.</p>
<p>top few of my career for ALL the boxes. that made me pretty happy :D</p>
<p>^ Mine did the same. But don't you worry that the adcoms will think the teacher didn't put any thought into it and just lazily checked all the boxes the same?</p>
<p>wow, nobody at my school gets to see their recs and teachers rarely offer to tell students. Its considered rude if we asked.</p>
<p>nevertheless, I marked I didnt want to waive it for no real reason...I thought it didnt matter and plus what if I was curious in the future or something happens?</p>
<p>I trust my teachers and honestly dont really obsess over what they write. Is this something to obsess about and call all colleges to tell them I do waive my right? I hope not</p>
<p>Hmph. Comparatively my teacher was a bit more scrutinizing and even checked the "Very good" box for academic achievement, disciplined work habits, and maturity. I was a bit dissapointed when I saw this, but then I was glad that she took to heart the brevity of the reccomendation. It makes the "few encounterd in my career" for crative, original thought" and "initiative, indipendence" seem all the more deserved. That or I am just a bad applicant.</p>
<p>I've not seen ones from HS teachers for UG applicants, but I've seen many many many hundreds written by professors for grad school applicants. And just as many written by professors for professors when considered for promotion and tenure. </p>
<p>Universally such letters are positive if not very so (or most letter writers would decline to write one I believe). The numbers and checked boxes are ignored unless something jumps out in the negative or it aligns with another letter writer (and universally those checked boxes or numbers are all in the high category too). So I think finding out you have a glowing letter or lots of positive checks may not tell you very much. </p>
<p>Then again, do you think HS teachers might be different? That is, do you think they'd agree to write letters to your dream school for you (which takes a lot of extra time in their busy schedule), but often choose to write negative or neutral letters that thwart your chances? With that logic, then you should be thrilled if you are the more unusual student who actually gets a glowing letter! Maybe an adcom on here can tell you what they get to see on a regular basis. </p>
<p>Given the great bias toward the positive in most letters that the readers like me see at least, most of the time we are looking for anything negative at all, or reading between the totally-positive lines. Also short, generic or ho-hum positive letters aren't useful as it's tough to make a strong applicant really stand out among all the universal positive letters with generic, global statements (and not enough specifics to justify the statements). (as an aside, as a frequent letter writer myself I have on occasion wanted to say "but this person REALLY REALLY DOES WALK ON WATER!" knowing it's hard to be heard in the din of so many cheering for their applicants). Unfortunately generic/ho-hum letters might as easily be a reflection of the letter writer - ie lazy, busy, unaware of what's needed, or a poor writer- rather than a reflection of how they feel about the applicant. I think the lesson is to find not only letter writers who KNOW you and can say lots of positive but <em>specific</em> things about you, but also who are the kind of people who will put a lot of work into it (e.g.they are say diligent, detail oriented, organized, always go the extra mile for students). </p>
<p>Finally, I think its unfair (if not arrogant) for a teacher to suggest their letter is so great you will get in. Do they know what your competitions' letters look like? It's probably a small part of the whole thing and again, with everyone writing such great things about so many, how much difference can it make if its positive? It's a nice compliment to themselves I suppose, but they shouldn't get your hopes up too high either. </p>
<p>On waiving I think it's a good idea because it simply shows the teacher could be more honest and forthright, knowing you would not see it. I'd say 90% of the letters I see are waived, but it doesn't change the positiveness.</p>
<p>I am yet to apply, but here's my take on what a good rec will have:</p>
<p>The check boxes will mostly be checked at the upper end of the spectrum</p>
<p>The essay part will:</p>
<p>Have a few lines (maybe a paragraph?) about the student's academic excellence (no need to rehash what's already there in the transcripts,, is there?)</p>
<p>Devote a paragraph or so to the student's extracurriculars - seamless balance between studies and other activities, well-rounded, contributes greatly to the community and yada yada.</p>
<p>Write quite a bit about the student's personality and personal qualities - all while drawing light to a few incidents that help bring out these qualities.</p>
<p>Sum up the student's worth in a conclusion that gives a strong reason why the student should be accepted</p>
<p>Now I just hope my teachers have ESP so that they know what I'd like :S.</p>
<p>knickknackpatty- I think it's not just your school with the "rude to ask to see it" thing. No matter how close the relationship is, I think it is considered very rude to ask to read it, since you're basically saying "I don't trust you, but I asked you to write it for me anyways". If the teacher offers to show it to you, or gives you permission to read it, of course, it is okay.</p>
<p>Good recs are anecdotal recs. That is why the letter is more significant than ticking the boxes. Adcoms know that a teacher is very likely to be generous towards the student in order to help them get into their dream school, but the letter - if it is anecdotal, rather than a long list of eulogizations - it can and will convey so much more. For instance, if the teacher is describing how the student made a poignant question in history class which opened up a constructive debate on what constitutes a true leader and if Hitler was one or not, and if the teacher incorporates this anecdote in the letter, voila: an excellent rec letter not comprised only of "I was awed by the student's enthusiasm, and his intellectual capabilities".</p>
<p>you should ask teachers that are pretty close to you, not just in the classroom</p>
<p>No one sees recs at our school, either. In fact, one teacher even went as far as to seal an envelope and put his signature straddling the seal on the outside of the envelope. My son needed to personally mail it in with his scholarship application. Normally this would have raised a red flag, except for the fact that my son knew he'd done letters for some "screw-off" kids and they'd been accepted. My advice would be to use teachers have written successful letters for others. </p>
<p>In thanking the teacher for writing the letter, the teacher mentioned some anecdotes from the school musical he and my son participated in together so I think that may have been in the letter.</p>
<p>A previous poster (who is applying to colleges himself/herself) mentioned that he/she thought a good letter should contain mention of extracurriculars. I disagree with that.</p>
<p>The teacher rec letter should remain focused on what that teacher PERSONALLY knows of the student. It would be a waste of space for your AP Chemistry teacher to mention what, by hearsay, she knows of your artistic endeavors or community service. That opinion is irrelevant. Now if that same teacher was the choir master and you happened to be in choir, then great. Otherwise, the space is often very limited and the teacher rec should remain focused. HTH</p>
<p>Well I would hope the teacher also mentioned his performance in class. It might be a little harder to recall that the essay he wrote on socialism a year ago was superb. Should he could look back in his grade book and recount all the "A"s? Remember, collleges are trying to idea of the whole person and often times anecdotes are a good way to convey this.</p>
<p>What's difficult about recs is that the level of interaction between teachers and students beyond the classroom really varies from school to school. I go to a large public school. I rarely end up talking with my teachers outside of class or extracurricular activities. At a lot of private schools with much smaller classes (500 in my senior class -- my girlfriend has 80 in her senior class), it's much, much easier to get to know your teachers.</p>
<p>Also, a lot of private schools, it seems to me, have established systems for recommendations, and I think the teachers are really pushed by the schools to write great recs. For most private schools, their goal is to send as many kids off to big-name schools as possible, because it reflects positively on them. At my school, the guidance counselors spend much more time on students who are having trouble getting into any college at all, whereas it seems that at small private schools, they check essays, give lots of advice, and even sometimes interfere with the process (I've heard of counselors getting outright angry when a student said they'd cut a certain college from their list).</p>
<p>Of course, I don't go to a private school, and this all sort of speculation and assumption. My point is that I think colleges probably do take this difference into account. I know you can say that of course it's possible to get close to your teachers in public school, you just have to make the effort. And it is my fault that I'm not terribly close with my teachers outside of class. But I still think there is an imbalance that needs to be taken itno account.</p>
<p>I think that your assumption about private schools is just that, an assumption.
Just as all college counseling offices at public schools are different, so are college counseling offices at private schools. </p>
<p>At my private school, you are basically told to waive your rights. (If you trust who is writing for you, why not? And as others have said, it makes the rec look more legitimate) And teachers will definitely say no if they don't feel comfortable writing for you. While it probably is easier to have a closer relationship with your teachers at a smaller school, it certainly does not mean that all students do have them. As students you have to initiate and keep them up. Teachers aren't going to hunt you down. Least, this is at my school. </p>
<p>I hear you on your fear about them not understanding that you come from a huge school, so the only consolation I can offer is that the adcoms are people, too. I would assume that your transcript/school profile says how many students are in your school. I think that they get that your faculty student ratio isn't as small as a private school one and that it's not quite as possible to have a close relationship.</p>
<p>Good point, Adaman.</p>
<p>I attend a private boarding school. Having been in public school for freshman & sophomore years (just long enough to get a peak at how college counseling works there), there's less personal interaction. Plus, boarding schools have it especially well off because teachers often live on campus (or in the dorms) and you see them so many more hours in a day.</p>
<p>But this really only helps out the school's overall matriculation data. An individual student (like myself) pays the price when there are more qualified applicants applying to the same top schools I want to go to. Colleges might not have official school quotas, but they do compare you to others in your class. In the end, you find yourself assessed on two levels: the college's applicant pool, and your own high school's pool. </p>
<p>In the end, more people get into better schools. But less people get into their top choices. So, if you simply want to get into a "top 20" school, maybe private school helps. If you want to get into "X University," (assuming X University has a low admissions rate) I think you might find private schools interfere. And really, not many students simply want a top 20 school; we have preferences.</p>
<p>Point is, more "great" recommendations simply increase competition for private schoolers, it doesn't really aid their chances at an individual school.</p>
<p>I thiiiiink I may have forgotten to fill in the box to waive my rights. Will that kill me?</p>
<p>I once taught a class of high school aged homeschooled kids for an entire year (at a homeschooling co-op). I was asked to write letters for many of the students who were applying to colleges. I can't tell you how tempting it was to write, "This student was prompt," for a particular young man who was really not interested in the subject matter and made it known to one and all.</p>
<p>Eventually, I wrote that he had command of the subject matter but that his maturity level was average, as was his work ethic. He did not make it into Penn, but did at PSU, from which he has graduated. (He had a 1250/1600 or so on his SATs .) I really hated to send a rec. that lacked luster - but could not in good conscience tell UPenn that he was the best student I had ever encountered - or even that he was one of the best of my career. I did temper my comments though, explaining that I was not a certified teacher in a school, but a mother teaching a co-op class.</p>