I’m an American high school junior looking to study math or theoretical physics in the UK, and I would love if someone could give me a rough estimate of my chances. The main universities I’m looking at are Cambridge (math) and Saint Andrews (haven’t decided yet, but I’ve heard it’s great for both). I know this sounds really ambitious, but there’s no point in coming to the UK and paying international fees unless I get in somewhere I really want to go.
I have an ACT of 34 (my only attempt at either exam), and if it would help me I could get a 1520+ on the SAT. I’m taking 5 AP exams at the end of this year (Calculus BC, Physics Mech, Physics E&M, Microeconomics, and Macroeconomics), and I’m reasonably confident I can get 5’s in all of them.
The thing preventing me from applying to top american universities is that I don’t have a great GPA. I screwed up pretty bad at the end of freshman year and sophomore year, and my final GPA won’t be above a 3.1 or so. I’ve heard a lot of people say UK schools won’t even look at my class grades, but I’ve also heard a couple of people who said the opposite. If someone could clarify this, it would help me consider how high to aim.
Finally, I’m thinking about taking the STEP exams this June. I’ve been doing some of the problems, and there’s a decent chance I could get an S in the STEP 1, and a non-zero chance for the STEP 2. STEP 3 is a bit more of a stretch, so I wanted to ask whether I have to do all of them at once. I know the exam is usually given as a part of a conditional offer, but I think taking it early (assuming I do well) would greatly increase my chances of at least being called for an interview.
I know there are still a lot of unknowns here, but assuming I get 5’s on all my AP’s, and do well on the STEP, what are my chances of being called in to an interview/getting an offer? Will my class grades hinder my chances?
For maths at Cambridge, STEP is an order of magnitude more important than anything else, and so I would absolutely do STEP 1 and 2 this year. STEP 3 is for students with further math A level (so not well suited for someone just doing Calc BC this year), and some colleges might make you an unconditional offer based just on having got S’s in STEP 1 and 2. I’d ask the admissions office at specific colleges before you apply, since some might request STEP 3, assuming you are doing more math in senior year (at least MVC), and that would be problematic since the results aren’t available until mid August. Also consider that Cambridge doesn’t like American applicants as much as Oxford (and Oxford goes off the MAT, though I’d expect them to give your STEP results serious consideration).
Its a bit late now, but have you done AMC/AIME? That is also highly regarded. Also, what would your math teacher say in a reference? Are you the best math student in your school in the last 5-10 years? In combination with S’s in STEP, that would probably be enough to get you an interview if you tick all the other boxes (5s in APs etc) regardless of GPA.
My math teachers would definitely give me a good reference. I’ve had a pretty easy time with math classes, and often (with the teacher’s permission) I spend class time learning about different topics, such as calculus, MVC, and linear algebra. (I’m not actually taking a calculus class, I’ve learned the material on my own time. I will be skipping to MVC and linear algebra next year though).
I doubt I’m the best math student in the last 10-15 years, but my school is the kind of school that sends a bunch of students off to Ivy League’s every year, so the standard is pretty high.
I haven’t done the AMC, unfortunately, but I do know enough material that I think I could do well in STEP 1 or 2, and maybe 3 as well given 3 more months of study. I also know that Cambridge accepts fewer international students, but I just like the look of the university and the course structure more than Oxford.
Anyway, thanks for the quick reply. I’ll give STEP a shot, and even if it isn’t enough for Cambridge, I guess it will help on pretty much every application.
It’s not typical to do all three STEP papers. You either do 1 & 2 (if you have just maths A level) or 2 & 3 (if you have further maths A level). Some colleges want 2 & 3, so look at the college (not maths department) websites and send them some emails to ask for advice before deciding which to register for.
That is using American standards, which values overall contribution to the community as well as all-round high marks & test scores. The UK in general- and Oxbridge in particular- does not. Cambridge maths wants mathematicians and it is the profs/dons who make the decision, not an adcomm building a community. They really won’t care about anything else other than your math chops (the university asks for a notionally decent GPA- but don’t specify a number).
If you are applying to Cambridge you can apply to 4 other UK universities with the same application. Have you considered Imperial? they have an interesting Applied Maths and Mathematical Physics section in their Maths department. Also, Durham has some good options. Both would be very highly regarded.
Durham and Cambridge are both in towns, and you belong to a college within the university. Imperial is in London, so city living / not really campus-centric. StAs has a central campus, but is in a village which becomes an extension of campus.
A suggestion for you - try last years AMC 12 exam and see how you do. If you get a score that would have qualified you for the AIME, then try that one next.
Also, even though you have no interest in Oxford, try a past MAT paper. Past papers and solutions are on the Mathematical Institute web site. Look at your score versus the average score for those invited for interview. Should give you some benchmark on how you stack up versus your likely competitors for a spot.
And to @HazeGrey’s point, if you don’t get an AIME-qualifying score, and a MAT score that is sufficient for interview, then you may be a bit out of your depth.
It wouldn’t be fun doing Cambridge math if you aren’t really strong, and I’m serious that you should be the best mathematician at your school in the last several years. If you are good (which for many people means realistic ambitions to do a PhD and become a professor), then it’s the easiest course there (12 hours of lectures plus 2 problem sets for your 2 hours of supervisions per week), if not then you will struggle for days (on your own, collaboration is discouraged) with the problem sets and not get anywhere. And you can’t bluff your way through as it all comes down to four 3 hour exams at the end of the year.
To give an example of how little they care about other things, I know someone whose son went to Cambridge to do math. He was completely unschooled (not homeschooled) after 7th grade, just did math online (AOPS etc) for his own amusement. No grades, no languages, no essays, etc. (and didn’t do competition math). He couldn’t get admitted anywhere in the US, but went to Cambridge, they asked him for S’s in STEP 2&3 and he got one of the top scores in the year in STEP 3. He did fine (and is now doing a PhD back in the US).
Hey there, just got an offer from LSE (while being rejected by all the U.S. schools for my low GPA) and thought I can help.
The UCAS system, in which you fill out your application to the British universities, don’t even have a section for you to upload your transcript or GPA. Your high school doesn’t need to send anything in as well. So GPA would definitely not be a worry.
I’m pretty sure you are aiming at Oxbridge/Imperial; they all have a EXTREMELY intense emphasis on test results. So do well in your AP’s. However, I don’t think the SAT would help much; I have a SAT composite of 1550, and a friend of mine didn’t even take it, we all got into LSE.
The PS is important as well, just remember to focus on your major.
Good Luck!
Superb point, @Twoin18. The work is intense at Oxbridge- but if it is something that you love and are good at, it can be really happy*.
*mostly! exams aren’t fun anywhere…
Yes, I did have a lot of fun (academic and otherwise), especially doing my PhD (which was mostly done in the bath and while rowing). FWIW I would describe my math skills as competent, but not exceptional (I was in the second decile of the undergraduate class overall). In US terms that would likely be somewhere in the top half of the AIME qualifiers. IIRC @HazeGrey’s son was state math champion in high school.
Lots of good info on this thread already but I just want to contribute a bit more:
I think that you have a good chance at St. A’s (or any UK uni outside of Oxbridge, LSE, and maybe Imperial and UCL).
The info on Oxbridge has already been covered.
If you are OK with London (the London unis don’t have much of a campus or campus atmosphere so it’s even more like grad school in a big city; think of them like being like attending NYU), look at what you can apply to at Imperial and UCL, but I wouldn’t necessarily disregard LSE either. Granted, I don’t know how set you are about math and theoretical physics, but LSE offers quite a few quantitative fields of study:
Actuarial Science
Econometrics and Mathematical Economics
Financial Math and Statistics
Math and Econ
Math with Econ
Math, Stats, and Business
Again, I don’t know your interests but in terms of percentage of alums at the top banks and consulting firms, only Oxbridge and LSE in the UK match the Ivies/equivalents in the US.
No guarantees on admissions to LSE, however.
Durham has colleges and more of a campus. Warwick does too. Neither are very well known in the US but Warwick has a reputation for being strong in quantitative disciplines.
The Scottish unis are 4 years instead of 3 and so offer you more flexibility to switch (to another quantitative field if you are interested).
For example, if you start with Mathematical Physics at Edinburgh, it’s probably not very difficult to switch to Math and Physics, Math and Business, Econ and Math, Applied Math, etc. if you plan your schedule right.
St. A’s (in what we Americans would call a college town and pretty isolated) and Edinburgh (in the center of Edinburgh) probably have more name recognition in the US than any other UK unis outside of Oxbridge, LSE, and maybe Imperial).
“For example, if you start with Mathematical Physics at Edinburgh, it’s probably not very difficult to switch to Math and Physics, Math and Business, Econ and Math, Applied Math, etc. if you plan your schedule right.”
And this is how you do it - find program structure for each degree and look at complusory courses. For example
http://www.drps.ed.ac.uk/18-19/dpt/utmapyb.htm
Now find the same info for a degree that you might want to switch to. Allign compulsory courses for both degrees, so you have all of them covered during year 1. You will have only one outside course (schedule 7 and 8) for this degree during year 1, and it is one semester course, not a full year. You might run into scheduling problem, too. It can be done, but you need to plan accordingly from day 1.
Well, actually, if you take your 3-4 elective classes in another subject in a way that covers another subject’s mandatory modules, you can switch even if your mandatory/core modules are different.
There will be only one 20 credit elective in year one for the degree that I referenced above (Mathematical Physics), and one in year two. STEM degrees are pretty rigid.
Wow, way more rigid than Humanities and social sciences. The most abrupt change I know of is student who went to an excellent Scottish university for Math ended up in Anthropology – with no problem.
It is a game of precision. It is possible to change degrees in Scotland, but it cannot be done on a whim. A student might end up taking extra credits during later years, but it is painful. I am going into details here, because many Americans assume that changing a major is not a big deal. It is, especially in STEM.
The uni does not want students to be there for more than 4 years. Hence selective weeding during years 1 and 2, and pretty strict guidelines for changing degrees and graduation.