What are my chances in America? ( British )

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<p>I am not trying to prove Dartmouth’s standing to the general public in the UK. Its non-existent I agree. Its reputation in academia and in top companies is unrivalled. I have never said that Dartmouth is popular in the UK. I have said in high academic circles- Oxbridge and LSE, it is acknowledged as elite. The fact that some “kids on TSR dont bring in up in discussions on prestige will never diminish its importance whatsoever.” Dartmouth students will continue to achieve great things regardless.</p>

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<p>They don’t. I know people who got into several schools with just incomplete recommendations. The schools explicitly stated on their website that they required two letters but a lot of people sent one and while in the process of getting the second one, they got accepted. 100% sure about this.</p>

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<p>International students duh . . .consequently they favor American degrees over other foreign students. I did not say they favor American degrees over british degrees- probably in your subconscious because you are on the defensive. Moreover, Its no secret that the majority of graduate students (postgraduates if you like) are international.</p>

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How do you know? Do you have any concrete evidence. I can confidently say this having talked to tons of professors. But this is anecdotal. However logic says that someone with a high GPA at a competitive university is better than someone with a similar GPA at a less competitive university. Professors and admission tutors have to have some sort of way of selecting candidates</p>

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<li> Moreover, Its no secret that the majority of graduate students (postgraduates if you like) are international. 63% of postgraduates at Oxford are international. The largest majority would be American. 17% of the postgraduates at LSE are from the US alone. Oxford has a lot of scholarships dedicated to Americans. All those Rhode scholars constitute a sizable portion of postgraduates.</li>
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<p>[Facts</a> and Figures - University of Oxford](<a href=“http://www.ox.ac.uk/about_the_university/facts_and_figures/index.html]Facts”>http://www.ox.ac.uk/about_the_university/facts_and_figures/index.html)</p>

<p>Americans constitute 17% of the postgraduate student body at LSE, About 5% at UCL and Imperial (Because of their lack of name recognition in the US). Not to talk of people from the EU at these schools which have AMerican degrees. A large number of people I have met from the EU go do postgraduate at Oxbridge because its cheaper for them than the US.</p>

<p>Yes an American degree from dartmouth would put him on top. </p>

<p>You want more statistics.</p>

<p>Oxford has an intake rate of 25.7% for its postgraduate program, its acceptance rate would likely be higher since most internationals might opt to go elsewhere. This is higher than that at Yale and Harvard graduate schools which on average is <=10%</p>

<p>(That’s for another thread, the one where you claimed that some of Oxford’s >25% acceptance rate programs are as selective as Ivies with a 3-10% acceptance rate). Of course because they are self-selective lol.</p>

<p>It is not true that only law firms care about school.</p>

<p>As a consultant with a global management consulting firm I worked with a wide range of UK companies and lived among senior executives. Trust me, attending an elite “public” school such as Eton and then Oxbridge assures top jobs for life.</p>

<p>^ agree. I noticed that a lot of british people who attend expensive public schools always place their high schools on their CV. In the US its the same.People who attended Exeter or Andover or St Pauls proudly always include their schools on their Resume. They have a reason for doing so.</p>

<p>And FYI, Dartmouth and LACs like Williams are well known among the well heeled crowd in London. There are a ton of Dartmouth investment bankers and consultants there.</p>

<p>I’m becoming increasingly exasperated reading your replies; you make one point and then change your mind once I rebuff you for it. What you actually argued was that Dartmouth’s apparent elite reputation amongst Oxbridge/LSE/employers almost guarantees them admittance and places them “top of the pile”, which is false.</p>

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<p>They do. Why do you assume that these peoples experiences are indicative of normal process? Too many of your arguments appear to be based on these types of assumptions rather than actual knowledge.</p>

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<p>It’s a well known fact amongst students. I know people who’ve taken masters degrees at prestigious universities, many of whom attended far less reputable institutions as an undergraduate. I’m sure if you asked any Oxbridge grad on here (where’s cupcake when you need her) they’d tell you the same thing.</p>

<p>Logic actually attests that the student with the high GPA from the less prestigious university is the better candidate, having achieved as much with less facilities.</p>

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<p>That doesn’t surprise me for a moment, but as the ‘well heeled crowd in London’ are not representative of the whole country I fail to see the relevance to anything I, or anybody else has said.</p>

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<p>It is true that law firms tend to be the only employers who care where you studied. Attending Eton implies a very well connected family, and it is those business connections which can ensure a job for life, not Eton. The days of the old boy public school connections have gone, it really does not matter where you attended high school.</p>

<p>Dionysus8- you seem to have a problem with logical consistency. You always ask me for evidence while using this to back up your statement:</p>

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<p>Does this look ok to you? You have presented anecdotal evidence. A well known fact based on what? Knowing a few/a lot of people? Where is concrete evidence? However what is generally accepted in your peer group seems to be quite ok with you with no need for statistics. However, you misunderstand. I am quite aware that your school would not preclude you from attending a prestigious school. However, I said students from well known universities are given a leg up. Dartmouth is well known in academia. I am not talking about the british public. </p>

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<p>Yes, I said that. I assume the OP would maintain a GPA of 3.6 and be capable of writing an excellent research statement. He will have no problem getting into Oxbridge. How is this false do you have any evidence to prove otherwise. Statistics and such? How many Dartmouth graduates have you met who are at Oxbridge? I would wager, I have met more than you, and I know their GPAs and when they applied. You my friend ask for what you yourself cannot give. You claim my statements are false but show no good reason why they are false. There are two things you need to prove a point- logic and statistics. I use logic because statistics like this are difficult to get. </p>

<p>Ivy league grads can get into Oxbridge with a 3.6+ while State school grads get in with at least a 3.87-3.9+. I am 100% sure of this. No need for statistics, its common sense. If you really want evidence you can search on linkedin. You will find people with “Cum Laude” degrees at Oxbridge and people with Phi beta kappa (Top 10%) there. You can then survey where the majority of students with Cum laude (< 3.7) come from. </p>

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<p>Pathetic. GPA has little to do with facilities. GPA is based on academic performance in the classroom. Usually less rigorous schools would have average students with high GPAs. Schools with less brainy students tend to be easier than those with smart students. So its easier to get a good GPA. You are the first person I have met who has used such an argument. I am going to make a thread based on your logic though because I find it a bit interesting view.</p>

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<p>Funny the person posting this has worked before in MC circles. Anyways statistically you find more people from certain schools in several jobs so it would make sense that prestige matters. This haas been discussed to death on TSR so I am surprised you are making this statement. All those top schools for IB list I see on TSR must be part of my imagination . . .</p>

<p>Whilst I agree it is far from satisfactory, it will have to do. The fact is I have neither the time nor inclination to search Google looking for a fact that will only confirm what I, and I suspect most other people reading this already know. Yes you said students from well known universities are given a leg up, but that is as untrue now as it was then. You say I haven’t shown any evidence to support my statement, which is true to an extent; but neither have you. So until such time as you do, I will not change my opinion on the matter.</p>

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<p>GPA has a lot to do with facilities in my view.</p>

<p>IB is I think the only other career where your college matters, though not as much as law. I was actually going to post that a few hours ago but I wanted to see if it was the other grad employer 2college2college was talking about. It is still true however that all but 2 employers don’t care what college you attended.</p>

<p>The old boy network is alive and well all over the world. Connections made at top schools, high schools, colleges and grad schools, have tremendous impact in the world of elite jobs.</p>

<p>Diony, are you a student?</p>

<p>Yes, I am.</p>

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<p>Management/Strategy consultancy is the third one. MC, IB and Gold circle law firms. Its rare for UK graduates to be hired for PE firms. I think that’s only common in US schools and even there its limited to very few schools.</p>

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<p>Dionysus- like you, I am sure about my convictions. But that is not how you prove a point is it? SO you expected me to look around google to prove a fact for you that is obvious to most undergrads in the US lol while being too lazy to have the courtesy to do the same for me. IvyPbear has articulated the same points as I have based on his experience in his school in the US. You are disagreeing about what people have experienced while being in the system. However, what is obvious to you is obviously correct.</p>

<p>Tsk tsk. what manners</p>

<p>Generally when people make statements, I try and find out if it is true without asking for evidence. When I cannot find anything, then I ask for proof. You learn from this. Notice when you make general statements, I dont ask for proof. Most times, I verify them myself. Its good, I learn from this- you would be surprised- I have learned a lot from this exchange. One thing I found interesting-</p>

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<li>You assume, I am attacking UK schools for personal reasons. However, I do extensive research because I like being knowledgeable about certain things and for other personal reasons. My research has shown me that graduates from Dartmouth and even lesser known LACs get great jobs outside their countries. I thought the opposite, since they are not known outside the US. To say that career prospects from Dartmouth in the UK is terrible is not true. Its different for the US because of issues of work visas for fresh graduates.</li>
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<p>Anyways:</p>

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<p>You can take a donkey to the fountain but you cannot make it drink . . .</p>

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<p>Its pretty obvious.</p>

<p>Well, I was naive about it all when I was a student. Then I went to a top college (which was full of kids from top prep schools) and a top business school (which was, and still is, full of grads from top colleges) and learned how the world works. I’m guessing Dionysus will very soon too.</p>

<p>For average jobs in average places school matters much less. But for highly sought after jobs that go to highly educated people, school will always matter. Whether it’s an ivy in the US capitals, Oxbridge in London or an IIT in Mumbai, school matters and you will realize the world gets smaller, you will run into the people you went to school with in your neighborhood, at your children’s top private schools whether they’re in NYC, London or Hong Kong, they’ll turn up at business meetings all over the world. When you are looking for a job your classmates will be on all the right places to help. </p>

<p>Top schools become part of your fiber for life. I have many very smart and successful friends who went to average schools who would tell you what they missed out on is the lifetime networks.</p>

<p>I comeback to what I’ve said in previous threads, if you make an outlandish statement be prepared (and able) to back it up with facts. I can’t very well make a case against what it is you say until I’ve seen your evidence for saying it.</p>

<p>And you can only see it by going out into the world and living it. From your perch it’s just a young persons ideal view of the world. Reality hits pretty quickly when you get out there.</p>

<p>Here’s one example: ivy league schools claim up, down and sideways to be meritocracies. Yet athletes, minorities and legacies are given half the seats with lower stats.</p>

<p>Actually there’s quite a lot of academic research out there (I can find you a cite if you want) that shows which university you go to doesn’t have much impact at all on future income etc. Rather which uni you go to is a reflection of pre-existing differences in ability.</p>

<p>What I mean is, if you take two kids who are smart enough to get into MIT, and send one to MIT and one to some directional school, it won’t have much impact on them, statistically.</p>

<p>It’s the pre-existing smarts that mean they could get into MIT that make the difference.</p>

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I would actually be really interested in this citation.</p>

<p>I have read some of those studies too. Too lazy to check them out :). Nevertheless, I dont think that is the point- the large majority of people who attend so called top schools would end up being moderately successful and no better than those at other schools. </p>

<p>However, the argument is that good schools make your life easier even though you are not that much smarter. I have seen below average legacies at good schools get jobs in IB and MC. If they did not have the connections to get into this schools, they would never be able to get access to several opportunities. </p>

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<p>Statistics treats things as numbers- human’s are more than numbers. As clichely said, “we are a mess of emotions”. Going to MIT will place this student in an environment that would make him want to succeed more. It now depends on how the student will react to that environment that would depend on what you call the statistic.</p>

<p>I think the study referred to is one by Dale which is oft quoted but the study has been shown to be flawed.</p>