<p>Thank you, that is the only point I was trying to make, contradicting this statement:</p>
<p>“My point is, HYPSM are superior to Berkeley and to all the rest of the schools. And there’s very little point to pit Berkeley against HYPSM for undergrad education, unless one is bent on becoming an engineer, in which case, Berkeley can compete with Princeton and Yale.”</p>
<p>And as I am sure you know very well, not all engineering majors start or stay as engineers. I am going to major in engineering (not sure which yet), but I do not know what I want to do with my life. I am certain that an engineering major with prepare me for a great amount of jobs. If one is bent on being an engineer, or just prepared for a great amount of work environments, which the schooling will provide, going to a state school can be equivalent or “superior.”</p>
<p>Berkeley, LA, Michigan, VA, and whoever else wants to come (UCSD, Wisconsin, GA Tech, UNC are all good)</p>
<p>Public ivies doesn’t mean “as good as ivies” it means the best public schools like how the ivies are the best private schools. (best schools in general really along with Caltech, MIT, Stanford)</p>
<p>^ If it does mean “best public schools”, then that still should be defined. Does that mean best in terms of undergraduate students/selectivity, best in terms of faculty/quality of academic departments, or something else? The resulting lists can be quite different, depending on what basis is used.</p>
<p>Thats a good point, JWT—what are the criteria? Richard Moll in his 1985 book Public Ivies used the term to refer to universities which “provide an Ivy League collegiate experience at a public school price.” Ive been using the term to refer to public universities at which a top undergraduate student can obtain an education as good as, or better than, that he/she could obtain at an elite private university across a range of disciplines.</p>
<p>LogicWarrior, since you apparently attend UCLA, can you name any discipline at UCLA in which a top undergraduate student could not receive an education at least as good as, if not better, than he/she could at an Ivy League university?</p>
<p>Well I’d rather attend HYP or MIT for my discipline, math, if only for the name recognition. I don’t think there’s a huge gap but it still exists.</p>
<p>e: I would not pick a “lesser ivy” (maybe Cornell though) over LA for math since a lot of people haven’t even heard of them.</p>
<p>Well, LogicWarrior, given the choice, I would probably choose a private university, too, if for no other reason than its smaller size. Nonetheless, if finances or some other circumstances constrained that option, a top undergrad could still get a very good education at a “public ivy” in most fields. I myself attended a top private university, but I’m a supporter of top public universities for some very important reasons. Ivy league universities educate not much more than 1% of our college-going population. The fact that California, Michigan, and Wisconsin set out to develop public universities with the breadth and depth of excellence across disciplines found at their flagship universities is quite admirable. Not every state that could have done this did so. Moreover, the existence of these universities makes a statement that higher education of this sort is a public good, and not just restricted to the few who can afford it, or win the admissions lottery. (Private universities don’t exemplify this same understanding of education as a public good, except in a paternalistic way, despite the numerous forms of indirect public supports that they received.) However, declining levels of state support for public universities, threatens the national resources that are our great public universities and so we risk ending up with a stratified higher education system of haves and have-nots. Incessant and pervasive prestige-whoring by the media and a large and influential segment among college-going students and their families only de-values and weakens support for public universities further.</p>
<p>To the person saying that UCB holds no weight east of Colorado - do you have Down Syndrome or some other severe learning disability? That is the dumbset thing I’ve ever heard. I’ll be attending UMich next fall (I chose it over Berkeley and UCLA in-state, as well as UVA and Harvard [was waitlisted, then accepted there]) and as soon as I told someone that I was from California, they asked why I chose Michigan over Berkeley or UCLA EVERY SINGLE TIME. Amongst the top students, 90% of them know Berkeley exists, regardless of where they live geographically.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I partially agree with this, but the fact of the matter is that a large portion of the students at the Ivies were selected not because they were well-rounded (though a majority of them are very well-rounded) but because they had a hook, or something else to pull them in, such as being a world-class musician or something along those lines. The students at those schools are brilliant, no doubt about that, but they also have devoted a large amount of their time to fostering a certain talent or something like that.</p>
<p>The top 25% of any of the public schools listed as the public ivies can compete with most of the students at any of the Ivies, and most of them, from the ones I’ve encountered are a lot more down-to-earth, ready to have a good time and extremely sociable people. I chose Michigan over Harvard because I want to have a social life in college, with ATTRACTIVE people, go to parties, live it up, enjoy life, go to amazing sporting events, all while attending one of the best schools in the nation and receiving an amazing education. Michigan’s departments are ranked more highly than the majority of the programs at many of the Ivies, yet the only reason why it is ranked lower is because of its student population, and because it is a public school. Because its acceptance rate is something like 45%, it is seen as inferior EVEN THOUGH its programs are better than those at other schools that are more selective, which is completely stupid.</p>
<p>thealalbatross, I would consider a perfect GPA, perfect SAT, world class musician, captain of the football and baseball teams, president of the school and a multi-hundred hour volunteer at the Church, all in the same person, to be well-rounded, don’t you?</p>
<p>that is the one that got accepted into HYP.</p>
<p>If you don’t think that the above would be considered a “well-rounded” student, then, by all means please tell us.</p>
<p>are you really telling us that the HYP students aren’t as “down-to-earth, ready to have a good time and extremely sociable people” as the top 25% of Michigan or, say Berkeley, students?</p>
<p>Have you spent any time at HYP to even make this kind of comment?</p>
<p>thealbatross, sorry to hear that the only problem that causes Michigan to be ranked lower than the Ivies, according to you, is the quality of STUDENTS at Michigan…</p>
<p>Well, how many top OOS students must apply to Berkeley to make it a “national player”? Is there an outline for schools to become a national player? </p>
<p>And, can you specify which States where Berkeley grads are not considered or a Berkeley degree is not respected?</p>
<p>JohnAdams, HYP are the top 3 Ivies. thealbatross was referring to all the Ivies, not just HYP. And he is correct. Michigan’s departments tend to be ranked as high, and in many instances a little higher, than departments at most universities, Ivies included. In 15 major fields of study, Michigan does well vs the Ivies:</p>
<p>Vs Harvard: 3-11-1
Vs Princeton: 3-9-3
Vs Columbia: 8-5-2
Vs Yale: 8-5-2
vs Cornell: 10-5-0
Vs Penn: 12-2-1
vs Brown: 14-0-1
Vs Dartmouth: N/A</p>
<p>So Michigan loses to Harvard and Princeton but hangs with the rest of the Ivies in the traditional disciplines. On average, the only 4 universities that seem to beat Michigan in the traditional disciplines are Cal, Harvard, Princeton and Stanford. </p>
<p>ANTHROPOLOGY (NRC)</p>
<h1>1 Michigan</h1>
<h1>4 Harvard</h1>
<h1>6 Penn</h1>
<h1>8 Yale</h1>
<h1>16 Columbia</h1>
<h1>27 Princeton</h1>
<h1>31 Cornell</h1>
<h1>44 Brown</h1>
<p>BIOLOGY</p>
<h1>1 Harvard</h1>
<h1>7 Princeton</h1>
<h1>7 Yale</h1>
<h1>11 Cornell</h1>
<h1>15 Columbia</h1>
<h1>20 Michigan</h1>
<h1>20 Penn</h1>
<h1>34 Brown</h1>
<h1>34 Dartmouth</h1>
<p>CHEMISTRY</p>
<h1>4 Harvard</h1>
<h1>10 Columbia</h1>
<h1>10 Cornell</h1>
<h1>13 Yale</h1>
<h1>16 Michigan</h1>
<h1>16 Princeton</h1>
<h1>19 Penn</h1>
<h1>53 Brown</h1>
<h1>60 Dartmouth</h1>
<p>CLASSICS (NRC)</p>
<h1>1 Harvard</h1>
<h1>3 Michigan</h1>
<h1>4 Princeton</h1>
<h1>5 Yale</h1>
<h1>6 Brown</h1>
<h1>10 Columbia</h1>
<h1>12 Cornell</h1>
<h1>13 Penn</h1>
<p>COMPUTER SCIENCE</p>
<h1>5 Cornell</h1>
<h1>8 Princeton</h1>
<h1>13 Michigan</h1>
<h1>17 Columbia</h1>
<h1>17 Harvard</h1>
<h1>17 Penn</h1>
<h1>20 Brown</h1>
<h1>20 Yale</h1>
<p>EARTH SCIENCE</p>
<h1>5 Columbia</h1>
<h1>8 Harvard</h1>
<h1>9 Michigan</h1>
<h1>9 Princeton</h1>
<h1>12 Yale</h1>
<h1>13 Cornell</h1>
<h1>17 Brown</h1>
<p>ECONOMICS</p>
<h1>1 Harvard</h1>
<h1>1 Princeton</h1>
<h1>6 Yale</h1>
<h1>9 Penn</h1>
<h1>10 Columbia</h1>
<h1>12 Michigan</h1>
<h1>18 Cornell</h1>
<h1>19 Brown</h1>
<p>ENGLISH</p>
<h1>2 Yale</h1>
<h1>4 Columbia</h1>
<h1>4 Harvard</h1>
<h1>4 Penn</h1>
<h1>7 Cornell</h1>
<h1>7 Princeton</h1>
<h1>13 Brown</h1>
<h1>13 Michigan</h1>
<p>HISTORY</p>
<h1>1 Princeton</h1>
<h1>1 Yale</h1>
<h1>5 Harvard</h1>
<h1>7 Columbia</h1>
<h1>7 Michigan</h1>
<h1>9 Penn</h1>
<h1>12 Cornell</h1>
<h1>17 Brown</h1>
<p>MATHEMATICS</p>
<h1>2 Harvard</h1>
<h1>2 Princeton</h1>
<h1>8 Michigan</h1>
<h1>10 Columbia</h1>
<h1>10 Yale</h1>
<h1>13 Cornell</h1>
<h1>14 Brown</h1>
<h1>18 Penn</h1>
<p>PHILOSOPHY (NRC)</p>
<h1>1 Princeton</h1>
<h1>3 Harvard</h1>
<h1>7 Michigan</h1>
<h1>8 Cornell</h1>
<h1>13 Brown</h1>
<h1>26 Penn</h1>
<h1>27 Columbia</h1>
<h1>58 Yale</h1>
<p>PHYSICS</p>
<h1>1 Harvard</h1>
<h1>5 Princeton</h1>
<h1>7 Cornell</h1>
<h1>11 Columbia</h1>
<h1>11 Michigan</h1>
<h1>11 Yale</h1>
<h1>17 Penn</h1>
<h1>30 Brown</h1>
<p>POLITICAL SCIENCE</p>
<h1>1 Harvard</h1>
<h1>1 Princeton</h1>
<h1>4 Michigan</h1>
<h1>5 Yale</h1>
<h1>7 Columbia</h1>
<h1>20 Cornell</h1>
<h1>28 Penn</h1>
<h1>46 Brown</h1>
<p>PSYCHOLOGY</p>
<h1>3 Harvard</h1>
<h1>3 Michigan</h1>
<h1>3 Yale</h1>
<h1>8 Princeton</h1>
<h1>11 Penn</h1>
<h1>17 Columbia</h1>
<h1>17 Cornell</h1>
<h1>29 Brown</h1>
<p>SOCIOLOGY</p>
<h1>3 Princeton</h1>
<h1>3 Michigan</h1>
<h1>5 Harvard</h1>
<h1>11 Columbia</h1>
<h1>11 Penn</h1>
<h1>17 Cornell</h1>
<h1>20 Yale</h1>
<h1>25 Brown</h1>
<p>In addition to the traditional disciplines, Michigan also has very strong professional programs. </p>
<p>Before I disprove everything you post, Mr. JohnAdams12, I would like to let you know that contrary to popular belief you actually CAN fit everything you need to say into ONE single post. I know, novel idea, hard to believe. And even greater yet, there’s an EDIT feature, in which one can edit their posts, so god forbid you leave something out, you can go back and edit it. So maybe you should try to not quintuple post and maybe fit everything into one. </p>
<p>
I’m talking about people that actually exist. Not people that you make up to try and dispute my point when these kinds of people clearly don’t exist. I could see a perfect GPA/SAT as well as a world class musician, but anything else other than that is unrealistic. Heck, I didn’t have any of these; I had decent grades (4.6 GPA) and an average SAT score for Harvard (2250) and I got in. These kinds of people, the ones you describe, aren’t real. They exist in your fantasy world that maybe gets you off at night, but they’re as common as unicorns and leprachauns.
Uhhhh, no. They don’t get into HYP because they don’t exist.</p>
<p>
I consider well-rounded to be someone who has great grades and extra-curriculars, while also being a person that other people enjoy spending time with. I hated all of the kids at my school who fit into your “utopian” description of every single Harvard student that has ever attended the school. Someone who can hold a job, party on the weekends, and also go to sporting events and other things is what I consider well-rounded. The person who seems average on the outside, a likeable person that people thoroughly enjoy being with (their friends notwithstanding) while also having amazing grades and things like that.</p>
<p>
Uhhh yea, I am really telling you that. The people at HYP aren’t nearly as normal (by my definition which is obviously purely subjective but most of the people outside of CC would agree with my definition) as the people At Michigan or Berkeley. I know multiple people that have gotten into Harvard/Stanford/Dartmouth/Princeton/Yale/Columbia/Brown/UPenn. And of those kids, nobody liked any of them aside from the kid who went to Columbia. The ones that got into Yale were suck-ups, with truly no redeemable qualities. They were obnoxious teachers’ pets and literally nobody liked them. Hell, my uncle went to Stanford and he’s a complete ■■■. So yea, I stand by my point of the kids not being as down-to-earth, ready to have a good time and extremely sociable.</p>
<p>I haven’t spent time at Yale or Princeton, but I’ve visited Harvard a few times and met a few kids from Yale (see above) and for the most part, no, they couldn’t compete with the kids at Michigan or Berkeley in the social sense. I haven’t visited Princeton and I actually don’t know of anyone that went there, but I’d imagine it really isn’t an exception since a lot of the people accepted there are cross-admits to other Ivies. They didn’t party, they didn’t hang out at the beach like most kids from where I live and they really didn’t do much that would warrant them being considered ‘cool’ by the high school definition of the word. Obviously this sounds childish and immature, but I don’t know how else to put it. I certainly wouldn’t hang out with them.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>See Alexandre’s post. He pretty much nailed it. No school can compete with Harvard, and I know that, but Michigan is just as good as 6 out of the 8 Ivies without a doubt. </p>
<p>
Obviously this is a sweeping generalization, and not true. And I acknowledge that there are other factors (which are beyond me), but the fact of the matter is that Michigan’s programs are ranked more highly than most of the Ivies, and yet it is ranked way lower. It doesn’t make any sense. The only reason (as I see it) is because it’s a public school that is forced to accept a certain number of students, especially in-staters, and that’s why it’s ranked lower. The bottom 25% of Michigan students, albeit still intelligent people, are nowhere near the bottom 25% of the students at ANY of the Ivies.</p>
Sorry, meant to say “everything you JUST POSTED”, not “everything you post”. So it would be impossible for me to accomplish that in my earlier post unless I had the ability to predict what he was going to say, but I (improperly) assumed someone of your intellectual capacity would be able to understand that. My bad for jumping to conclusions.</p>
<p>
haha because I REALLY care what people think about me over the internet. And actually, no it won’t remain around my neck at all. But I’ll agree that it was quite a gem :)</p>