@roethlisburger While working on an topic related to baccalaureate and PhD origins of math faculty last year, I collected data on the undergrad and PhD institutions of hundreds of math tenure-track faculty. Female math faculty are much more likely to have gotten their undergraduate degree at a foreign institution. About 50%. This compared to about 1/3 of male math faculty.
Here were the numbers for math Faculty MIT, Princeton, Harvard, Stanford, Yale, NYU, U Chicago, & U Penn
This is just those faculty who posted their CV with their undergraduate info.
Female 15: 7 foreign, 8 foreign
Male 54 foreign, 110 US
Here are the numbers for all the math departments I looked at. Ivies + the top flagships and xyz state universities
Again only faculty who posted their CV with undergrad info
Female 44 foreign, 45 US
Male 179 foreign, 317 US
These numbers wonât come as any surprise to anyone familiar with math faculty; itâs pretty noticeable that the female faculty are more likely to have accents. If itâs just about natural math aptitude (as measured on IQ/SAT), then female faculty wouldnât be so much more likely to get their undergraduate degrees at a foreign institution.
Harping on IQ differences at the extremes while dismissing the far more influential âelephantsâ in the room is intellectually dishonest. ButâŠif they were really interested in that question, then why not work on something with a lot more data: why are there not more Asian male STEM faculty? If any group knocks the math tests scores out of the ballpark, itâs Asian guys. Asian women are unusually good at these tests too. But Asian male faculty are highly under-represented. Sure all your grad student math TAs are Asian, but your faculty? Not much relative to how much they dominate the USAMOâa much better measure of extreme math talent than IQ or SAT tests!.
I donât think your if-then follows from the data you presented without a lot more data and analysis. Assume for the sake of argument that Summers is right and a higher percentage of men have the math ability to compete at the highest levels. Letâs assume a university wants to add more diversity to their math faculty without lowering standards. One way to do that is to hire more international faculty. The US is less than 5% of the worldâs population. The flip side of that might be foreign born Asian men are discriminated against, but thatâs a whole different discussion. Itâs also possible that foreign women are less likely than foreign men to want to return to their home countries for a variety of reasons. The bigger issue isnât whether you agree or disagree with Summers, but the desire of Harvardâs faculty to prevent students from being exposed to a diversity of ideas.
Back to the original topic-this thread seems to exemplify exactly the problem the OP wishes to avoid. OP made a request for schools with an open dialogue and exchange of views, and several posters jumped on the attack with all sorts of unfounded assumptions regarding OPâs motivations and potential biases. Perhaps as posters we could all model the more reasoned and mature dialogue we wish to see at universities, particularly those of us who are parents.
@roethlisburger - Absolutely incorrect; of course I read Summersâs original remarks, both at the time and also in preparation for this discussion (why would you assume I did not?). All I can figure is that youâre snookered by Summersâs claim that he is only talking about the âoutliersâ. In that case, fine, so letâs add hubris to my complaints about Summers: itâs not only the extreme academic outliers (on IQ tests) who are smart enough to become math faculty at universities (!).
And great point by @liska21 about Asian Male faculty. To add to that, for a long time, these men were only being hired by public universities (also previously Jewish men) which led to the rise of many public universities in STEM fields (e.g. CS).
Just because Summers âstarted thinking aboutâ the âproblem of women and STEMâ as a middle-aged guy in a position of power, doesnât mean that he had anything new to say. @hebegebe seems really impressed with Summersâs smarts, but being smart doesnât make you wise or insightful. All three of Summersâs so-called insights about women in STEM were, even at the time of his remarks, very old news. Reading his words again makes me angry again, that he had no idea that the world had been discussing this issue far beyond his trivial âanalysisâ.
@hebegebe - why would you state that you assume I meant the opposite of what I said, and then go on to argue with that? Itâs bizarre.
No, I said, and I meant, that this kind of âwomen in STEMâ conversation goes on all the time at colleges. And unfortunately, itâs done in ways that are incredibly demeaning to the actual human beings who ARE the women in STEM. Many of us hear this discussion and hear ourselves being erased as we are analyzed, assumed to be ânot as smart,â or at the very least, unwelcome.
ETA: The relevance of my point to the OP is this: itâs somewhat shallow to ask only about diversity of opinion without also acknowledging that some of these âissuesâ you want to âdiscuss openlyâ are actually real peopleâs lives. And when itâs someone else and not you whom youâre discussing openly, you should indeed be considerate enough to avoid being ânon-PCâ i.e. insulting.
then hopefully you will be more sensitive to others, including OP, who also disliked being analyzed, having assumptions made, and feeling, at the very least, unwelcome on this thread.
Well, I wouldnât have equated ânon-PCâ with" insulting", but I think we can all agree on the importance of better manners and civility in all public discourse by all parties.
I would like to think I am both strong and intelligent enough to respond in a calm and reasoned manner to all arguments, at least that is my goal. It is one I try to model for my children as well, to not be threatened by anyoneâs words but to respond in an educated manner with rational arguments. Hopefully, that is one of the points of this forum.
Further proof that a range of opinions/speakers can be heard at liberal minded schools. To think otherwise means you are probably too limited in your source of ânewsâ.
The only colleges where âfree speech is bannedâ would be ultra-conservative religious schools where you have to adhere to a strict christian code.
If you donât want one of the more liberal schools, just look through some of the âmost liberal schoolsâ lists and donât pick schools off those lists. Itâll leave plenty of schools http://www.bestcolleges.com/features/most-liberal-colleges/ for example
Only a small percentage of the population has the chops to get a Phd in math, whether you want to use IQ, SAT scores, or @liska21 preferred measure of USAMO. Most of those Phds either wonât get tenure track positions in the first place or wonât contribute anything significant enough to their field to merit tenure. Of the elite few who manage to get tenured faculty positions, most wonât end up at the top universities. Saying the tenured math faculty at the top universities arenât outliers strikes me as bizarre. What does it take to be an outlier by your definition(a Fields medal?)
You can go to UNC Wilmington, where there is a tenured professor who makes rude and insulting comments about students (within the realm of protected free speech).
OP, I think this thread is answering your question - keep you mind open and your mouth shut while you endure 4 years of tolerance.
I agree with some that larger state schools are more heterogeneous. Small liberal arts schools are almost uniformly ultra liberal and less likely to be accepting of differing political views.
Part of the college learning experience is getting out of your bubble. Many teens are used to being in a family and a town that share and help form their current viewpoints. I agree with @WISdad23 to keep an open mind but I disagree that one needs to keep your mouth shut. However, one must get used to engaging in a dialogue and have opinions that can be backed up with facts and well thought out discussion. College isnât going to be like dinnertime conversation surrounded by likeminded family members. Expect to have viewpoints challenged regardless of where you stand in the political spectrum.
The issue is, itâs just not ok to be racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. I donât know how much more clearly anyone can explain this to you, OP. Yes, you will be able to find colleges that donât pressure you on this point, but they wonât be elite, in general.
@fretfulmother - Can you point me toward any statement the OP made that is racist, sexist, homophobic? Being a conservative does not equate to those things.
I believe that the tone of his question and his laudatory use of the term ânon PCâ are suggestive of those views. Coupled with a desire to debate âopenlyâ about what he sees as âissuesâ which I see as peopleâs identities.
âI believe that the tone of his question and his laudatory use of the term ânon PCâ are suggestive of those views. Coupled with a desire to debate âopenlyâ about what he sees as âissuesâ which I see as peopleâs identities.â
There in lies some of the challenge. You identify those who are non PC as racist, homophobic, and sexist. Most people who are non PC donât identify as such. Unless people can discuss their different views or issues we end up identifying people the way we choose and not as they view themselves. I think the OP is looking for an atmosphere where these differences can be discussed.