What defines a liberal arts university?

Parents Forum
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There’s always an exception - and three elite schools were mentioned vs. more than a thousand others.

No one is saying that students from an LAC cannot be successful. People are saying that their initial outcomes (which then manifest through their future) are more unpredictable, likely less assured, and will likely pale in comparison over time.

For what it’s worth, Bryan Moynihan got into B of A because he worked for a bank (first in legal, then in banking) they bought. And before he worked for the bank, got a JD at Notre Dame.

Jamie Dimon has a Harvard MBA.

I think the point is really being missed - or perhaps I missed it and I’m not sure how we got here from title of the thread.

In today’s world, a Liberal Arts degree may be of value but it certainly does not have the initial outcomes of a pre-professional degree. And typically those who start highest stay higher through life. No one said that you can’t turn a liberal arts degree or any degree into an MBA (as Dimon did) or JD (as Moynihan did).

I have no doubt that if my liberal arts kid had any ability/comprehension of accounting or CS or engineering principles, she’d choose a different route. And she would pursue her passion on the side. But that is not her aptitude and as I’m similar to her (my engineer son takes after my better half), I get it and support it.

She is able to choose the route she has - and she and my wife are able to work with refugees for the last few years at cost to the family because I have been able to set up the family financially to do so. And I’ve created this - not with my History undergrad although admittedly I made six figures at 23 years old being in sales - but because my MBA helped me to build a career.

My daughter lives in the best apartment (because dad wants her next to campus vs. a 20 minute walk away like others). My daughter is able to be in a sorority, buy a dress for a formal which seems like 2x a year, and start a club at school to help refugees (also costing me money) - because dad is able to suppor that.

But I am the exception. When we put up Harvard, Tufts, Hamilton, etc. - that’s the exception - how about the LACs ranked below 40 (or regular colleges too) and the majority of kids that are out there with liberal arts majors (perhaps excluding Econ).

There is a reason majors such as these make rankings as the worst - and yes, they are looking at $$ because not everyone has dad or a husband/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend/sugar daddy/sugar mama to support them through. It doesn’t mean these are bad - but you find these common across many rankings - so perhaps where there’s smoke, there’s fire. I know my daughter’s studies are right for her today - but whether they are right for her tomorrow, that’s the unknown. Because I have the ability to be a financial safety net for her, I’m supportive in her pursuing her goals, just as my dad supported (even at great financial waste) my desire to be a sportscaster. Everyone has different values.

But in this day and age, it’s different world than 40 years ago - and it’s interesting to me and I just pulled up 4 random self proclaimed LACs and:

  1. Grinnell - CS is the top major
  2. W&L - Business and accounting are the top 2
    3.Harvey Mudd - Engineering
  3. Carleton - Computer Science

There’s a reason they’ve “expanded”.

Some of the commonly mentioned worst majors across multiple polls:

Anthropology
Consumer Science
Early Childhood Education
English/Literature
Fine Arts
History
Hospitality
Religion
Psychology
Sociology
Theater

I’m sure we’ve killed this 18 times over - we all think differently and that’s fine.

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It never did.

According to the nytimes, by the age of 40 the average salary for male social science and history majors is higher than for male computer science and engineering majors.

Men majoring in computer science or engineering roughly doubled their starting salaries by age 40, to an average of $124,458. Yet earnings growth is even faster in other majors, and some catch up completely. By age 40, the average salary of all male college graduates was $111,870, and social science and history majors earned $131,154 — an average that is lifted, in part, by high-paying jobs in management, business and law.

Harvey Mudd has hasn’t expanded into “engineering.” It was founded as a math and engineering school with a liberal arts emphasis, and it remains true to that vision. At Grinnell and Carleton, only about 10% of students majoring in CS, and depending on the school, majoring in CS isn’t necessarily inconsistent with a liberal art approach, just like majoring in math isn’t inconsistent with a liberal arts approach.

As for all the information about your family and daughter, I’m not sure I see the relevance.

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143

Can’t read the article - it’s firewalled. But how many English majors got a grad degree?

My point of my family is - I’m able to support her aspirations financially but perhaps if I wasn’t, I would steer her toward a different path or not fund her. That’s all.

Someone b4 said it’s a luxury. I’d agree with that.

Again, not sure how we got off on these tangents from the title of the chain.

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2022/12/28/beyer-student-artificial-intelligence-degree/

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145

I submit that it almost always is an investment (because virtually anyone undertaking it is indeed driven by an expectation of profit from their college degree and deriving an income) - regardless how you personally might assess timing and/or odds:

Actually the most direct path would be not to attend college, thus never have college expenditures/loans, but instead be ahead by 4 years of income and preserved assets!

So unless we accept, that a “long view” is needed to assess the value of anyone’s educational decision (including whether to attend college at all, whether to pick a major that promises a higher pay early-on vs. picking a major that could take longer to pay back), then everyone should just take on a trade - and there’d be no MD’s to treat you! After all, many a plumber do better than your average-joe/joan business major.

Then again - let’s take off the rose-colored glasses for a moment: With the tens of thousands of new business and accounting degree graduates each year, there will be some with great starting salaries, but also quite many more that will work at some small local firm or bank in some business, sales, accounting or finance job and even after a few years are still struggling to afford starting a family, a house, hitting night school for a masters,… (plenty of these “normal” cases in my wife’s firm).

Going back to the Volvo metaphore :wink: :
56,000 miles, originally about $4,580 - less than 8,100 cars made.

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146

Exactly this.

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147

This is the kind of message that misleads kids and has them running up college debt without adequate means of repaying the debt.

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OTOH, the student from a low SES family is less likely to mind living at home and the home itself is more likely to be located in a major metropolitan area with many layers of city, county and state civil service jobs many of which have residency requirements.

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Deleted.

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This attempt to draw a straight line from college major to income is too narrow a focus for me. I agree that CEOs are the exception, but I also think that ignoring them ignores the fact that they forged a path to get there. Everyone forges their own path.

When we’re talking about college students, we’re talking about late adolescents. At that stage of life, the biggest questions that young people are facing are “Who am I?” And “Where am I going?” I submit that the best way for them to get where they need to go is to follow their interests, whatever those are. Because in so doing they will find themselves. And that is really the task of college.

Is that worth the price tag of a private LAC? That’s for each family to decide with the help of a college’s financial aid office. Ultimately each family has to make its choice based on what it can afford. But a student can follow the liberal arts path at whatever college or university s/he chooses.

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151

@Bill_Marsh i think most of us here will agree with your post. I am happy that I can let my D explore her interests in college without debt piling up.

Two recent college grads I know from Top universities decided to take a year after college with an alternate low paying path because college was just too stressful. Will they ultimately be successful in a reasonably lucrative career? Probably but I think it’s a luxury because they have their parents (reluctant) support and no college debt.

Just because a parent will co-sign a private loan from college that the financial aide office provided you doesn’t mean that it’s a fiscally prudent idea. Long term ROI has to fit in the equation. Often it puts undue pressure on a student who choses a liberal arts path with significant debt ( or a business degree from a lesser known private college,etc ). You hear “I went to college and still make just above minimum wage and I can’t afford to pay back
my loans and move out of my parents house.”

It’s just very sad to me when young people put themselves in that position. I wish all students have the opportunity to pursue liberal arts (aka the pursuit of knowledge) for undergrad without regard for outcomes, I just think that’s often too idealistic.

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Not all low SES people live in urban areas. There are plenty of low SES people in rural areas.

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I don’t mean to prolong this debate, but IIRC, the data suggests that the students with the heaviest debt are the ones who were enrolled in for-profit institutions offering vocational and technical degrees that boxed them in so narrowly that they were left without jobs at the first whiff of an economic downturn. Otherwise, I think we’re done here, no?

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And they’re the ones most likely to find good teaching positions in their home communities.

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Not everyone’s skills are good for teaching (plus an additional teaching credential may be needed)… and those teaching jobs may not exist if their home area is depopulating with a shrinking school student population.

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Yes, life is unpredictable. Everyone has to determine their own comfort zone.

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@circuitrider yes those lying and deceptive colleges that offer vocational degrees for profit can be horrific experiences. I am generally against going into material debt for any undergrad degree without significant consideration of the outcome/ROI. Just like I am against massive mortgages or credit card debt.

We are talking however about the value of a liberal arts degree ( and the definition of liberal arts is still worthy of a debate). I think it’s wonderful to pursue knowledge and continue to mature from age 18 to 21 but the burden it potentially puts on a low income students is sad to me.

I was an accounting major in an instate school - I basically had a guaranteed job out of undergrad with a decent salary. Outcomes can be predictable in certain professions/schools - my friend was a history major and went straight to law school / he is successful but 7 years of school was required vs my four years and significantly more debt. It’s a gamble that a student does not stumble on the way and left with debt and not enough income / lucky for both of us we had family support.

We are all saying the same thing / liberal arts is a worthy education / and everyone who works hard deserves nice things in life / but that’s not always a realistic outcome.

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deleted.

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159

So you are saying that people who would not be good teachers should be pushed into teaching jobs? Seems like that would not result in good educational outcomes for the students.

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@ucbalumnus i am saying if you need material loans and don’t receive grant/scholarships and the path to repay the loan is not clear then go to community college or an instate /lower costs school where you can pursue your passion.
I was taught don’t buy things you can’t afford.

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