What Did You Do Last Summer? Jobs. vs. Internships

<p>citygirlsmom, I didn't say that employers don't appreciate volunteering or internships, and as far as I can see no one else said that either. I did say that a strong record of paid employment is generally given more weight. </p>

<p>When I look at resumes as an employer, a strong history of work experience tells me that the individual was able and willing to meet external demands and requirements of an employer, including completing tasks they didn't particularly enjoy, showing up to work regularly on time, etc. </p>

<p>Internships/volunteer experiences don't necessarily show that, because volunteers can essentially come and go when they please, and often can set their own terms about the type of work they are willing to do. When I hire someone, I don't want that person telling me later on they have decided they aren't going to work on Fridays any more, or they don't like doing X and would rather do Y instead -- or telling me in the middle of a project that they have changed their mind about working for me or something else has come up and they won't be coming in any more.</p>

<p>Of course there are many volunteers who are hard workers, reliable and willing to do just about anything -- but it's hard to know from a paper resume what type of volunteer the person was, as the outside standards for maintaining a volunteer position are far less stringent than the standards for maintaining employment. I know as an employer that if I want to be sure a task is done, and done on time according to my specs, then I need to assign the task to a paid employee. Of course a paid employee can mess up, get sick, or quit their job -- but I have recourse against the employees whose work or attitude is unsatisfactory (I can fire them) -- and people who depend on their income from employment are somewhat less likely to quit their job simply because of personal preferences. When I was practicing law, I think it would have been malpractice for me to assign certain types of tasks to volunteers -- for example, I certainly wouldn't want to have had to answer to the state bar telling them I missed a deadline because I put a volunteer in charge of my calendaring system. </p>

<p>On paper -- like a resume -- there is no way to know whether a volunteer was diligent and reliable, or what tasks and responsibilities were assigned to the volunteer. The bottom line is that paid work comes with legally imposed contractual obligations that aren't part of volunteer work, so an employment history is kind of like a credit history. Creditors don't really care how much money a person has or or how many possessions they have acquired -- the credit history tells them whether the person has a record of making payments on time. The person who has plenty of cash and has always paid cash, in full, for everything they buy may certainly be a good prospect for extending credit ... but the person with running balances on 10 different credit accounts and no missed payments over several years is one who has a demonstrated record of creditworthiness. </p>

<p>People tend to volunteer for positions that appeal to them in some way - because of their personal interests. They tend to work in order to earn money, often taking jobs that they would never consider but for the fact that they needed the money. While some people may have disdain for the jobs as being "menial" - those jobs give employers important information about a young person's character and readiness to take on responsibility, including responsibility for unpleasant tasks or drudge work.</p>

<p>The following "case study" is perhaps a slightly different twist to this discussion of volunteer versus paid positions, which gets back to something that may have been implied by the adcoms in the original Boston Globe article referenced by the OP.</p>

<p>I have interviewed college seniors for entry level marketing positions. I have also interviewed students applying to college. In the interview, I don't just ask them to tell me what they did and accomplished during their previous experience (volunteer or paid), I also ask them how they got the position.</p>

<p>Student A worked for 2 HS summers at the counter at a local burger joint. When I asked him how he got his position, he told me that when he was 14, his parents told him he would have to earn his own spending money. He went to every business on Main Street in his town, asked to speak with the manager, dropped off printed contact information, and was offered 3 jobs. He thought the burger one would be the most interesting. He told me that he learned about good customer service, responsibility for showing up on time and doing things without being asked. He learned how to shmooze people to get good tips!</p>

<p>Student B worked for the summer before college at a local retail clothing store. It was owned by his mother's friend. He worked about 20 hours per week, and was glad when the day was done. What he told me he learned was that he didn't want to work as a retail clerk.</p>

<p>Student C had a volunteer position at the local pet shelter. She had always loved animals, and had done a research paper for a sociology class on why some people abuse pets. She contacted the directors of three local shelters, and one had a position that would involve some direct work with the animals, along with helping organize a major fundraiser at the end of the summer. She enjoyed working on the fundraiser more than she expected, and learned about direct mail campaigns, response yields, and how to talk with large money donors.</p>

<p>Student D went on a program sponsored by an ecology organization that took her to various parts of the rainforest in South America. She observed endangered animals in the natural habitat. She said it was a really interesting trip, but it was a little "rough" when they had to camp rather than stay in a lodge. </p>

<p>I offered jobs to Student A and Student C. Their experiences, and what they took from them (as so briefly, but eloquently noted at the end of post #125) contributed to the positive "package" of transcripts, recommendations and other interview responses. It didn't matter that one was a volunteer position and one was a paid position.</p>

<p>"DP, are you saying that the ONLY commonality of "important, powerful, rich, successful people" is that they worked their behinds off?</p>

<p>Aren't there quite a few members of that elite group who have yet to work a single day in their successful life? Ever heard the term "heir?"</p>

<p>And on the other hand, aren't there millions of people who worked their behinds off and lived a life of poverty --at least in the way our society measures wealth?"</p>

<p>xiggi, (sigh)...
I don't know any "heirs". By successful, I mean people who have done something with themselves. I guess that definition doesn't include people like Paris Hilton.
I can't believe I'm trying to defend the position that successful people work hard. How can I begin? (It's hard to defend something that is so universally understood)</p>

<p>Is it cynicism? Youth? Regional? Experiential? Because you and I are definitely coming from different ends of the spectrum.
Honest, I don't know anyone who has been very successful that hasn't worked hard.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Is it cynicism? Youth? Regional? Experiential? Because you and I are definitely coming from different ends of the spectrum.
Honest, I don't know anyone who has been very successful that hasn't worked hard.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No real reason to sigh! It is obvious that the overwhelming majority of people can track their success to hard work. However, can we say that the ONLY commonality of success is hard work? </p>

<p>I introduced the added element of luck because I hail from an area where the difference between "lucky" people and others is so incredibly visible and tangible. This is a town where workers do travel two hours each way to a 12 hour shift and make about $100 per week. Along the bus route, they can see mansions of people who would be in the Forbes billionaires list if they bothered participating in the survey. I happen to know people who live in the mansions and I also have had the opportunity of spending much time with the working families and their children. All I can tell you is the scion of the rich family is not about to scoop icecream or work at Hollister. A problem in his life might entail having his Ferrari in the shop for two weeks and having to drive the Porsche Cayenne of his 16 year old sister. Is that a problem ... not at all. </p>

<p>However, the working family happens to live 50 yards from the metal fence that separates the US from Mexico. They can see what happens on the other side and they know they'll never belong there, unless they accept to be illegals. Where does luck and hard work come in? The 17 year daughter has started working in the same factory and is forced to contribute her salary to the family income. She also spends 60-70 hours a week at her distant job. She is obviously a hard worker but an unlucky one. Were she born 100 yards to the north of the fence, her life might be different and her 2300 SAT, 34 ACT, perfect GPA, and a couple of national titles in sport mean something! Maybe it would not be THAT painful had I not coached and tutored her ... and dreamed! </p>

<p>Now, her best hope is to save a few hundreds of dollars and enter a nursing school in Mexico. If that works she'll spend a few years working 80-90 hours weeks and hope to get a lucky immigration slot as her skills might be wanted in the US.</p>

<p>Should I tell both of those people who are friends that the key to success in life is hard work? Will success be measured the same way for the mega-wealthy son who will start life "handicapped" by a few hundred million dollars and the daughter of people who cannot read or write and live in a house built from cardboard and wooden pallets? </p>

<p>Yes, it is possible that we come from different ends of the spectrum. Yes, it is possible that the reality of a "regional" situations transforms one into a cynical observer. </p>

<p>It takes a leap of faith to believe that every fortune (small or large) is the result of an Horatio Alger type of story. Didn't a famous silver manipulator (read Hunt) answer the question of "What's the best way to make a small fortune?" with a simple answer of "Start with a big one"?</p>

<p>While there are many fortunes built on hard work, I think that you'll find enough evidence of inherited wealth and very good luck to challenge the axiom that hard work is the ONLY commonality of the powerful and the rich.</p>

<p>
[quote]
All I can tell you is the scion of rich family is not about to scoop icrecram or work at Hollister.

[/quote]
This is not at all true in my area. As I've said, my area is one in which students, starting at 14, are pretty much expected to work 40 hours/week in the summer. My area also has a lot of wealthy people and a number of old, powerful families. There is an entire culture in my area that revolves around private clubs, last names that mean something, jobs and family jobs, money, philanthropy, cocktail parties, and all the rest. Even though many of these families are wealthy, the kids almost all work summer (and often school-year) jobs, often menial ones (including Hollister and ice cream shops). I could name the companies that the grandparents of students I know ran or started; I could even give you their names, and you would know who some of them are. These are amazingly wealthy, successful people--in my area they two tend to overlap. Despite the fact that their home may be $5,000,000, the kids will still get jobs scooping ice cream, making sandwiches, folding clothes, ringing up items, handing out tickets in the summer. </p>

<p>Your generalization may be true for your area, but it is not true for mine.</p>

<p>"By successful, I mean people who have done something with themselves. I guess that definition doesn't include people like Paris Hilton."
~doubleplay</p>

<p>I do not consider people who have been given a wagonload of cash "successful people". They haven't done anything to deserve being called "successful". I consider them rich people. Not the same thing. I don't equate wealth with success. Many wealthy people are basketcases (PH, for instance).</p>

<p>In my original post, I used the words "important, powerful, rich, successful people". I guess I should have said, "important, powerful, rich, and successful people".</p>

<p>Anyhoot, I don't want to start splitting hairs over semantics. What I meant was self-made successful movers and shakers. Is that better?</p>

<p>
[quote]
Your generalization may be true for your area, but it is not true for mine.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Corranged, how do accomplish the rare feat of transforming a specific example into a ... generalization? Did you happen to miss the reference to the term Forbes billionaire?</p>

<p>I misread/mis-understoof the statement. You'll notice that in the sentence I quoted you originally did not have the word "the" before "rich." Without that word, the sentence can reasonably be read as a generalization, breaking off from your original story set-up.</p>

<p>In hs our DS was a life guard at near min wage. As a college undergrad he worked with a favorite prof for no pay on a summer project. Now as a rising college senior he is a $12/hr intern for a major entertainment software producer in Pasadena Cali this summer.</p>

<p>All good. And a nice summer experience trajectory. Fun in hs and more serious stuff in college.</p>

<p>$12/hr. That is almost min. wage in CA</p>

<p>Simba, actually his expensed in LA are not that bad-Room $520/mo, a short commute to work and a pb&j diet. But add to that the travel out and back plus $325/mo for his Troy apartment, he isn't banking a whole lot this summer.</p>

<p>But money is not what an internship experience is about. Its about experience related to your college major, and by any measure his has been super. That is the trajectory I was talking about, not the monetary one.</p>

<p>RE: the comment in the original article about the girl who worked "2 weeks in a Chinese orphanage". I think the admissions person was concerned because 2 weeks doesn't really show a pattern of long-term commitment. Sure, you can learn something -- but it would have been more impressive if the child had then, for example, come home and continued her interest through working with Big Brothers/Big Sisters, foster kids, etc. The 2 weeks thing makes it sound more like exotic foreign travel than a genuine, long term interest in orphans and orphanages. (Or if she had subsequently written her IB thesis on some aspect of this question -- literary, sociological or whatever.)</p>

<p>
[quote]
And a nice summer experience trajectory. Fun in hs and more serious stuff in college.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I know that would matter to me as an employer as do references or recommendations from whatever the students do (or in the case of internships, long term job offers) that some posters have mentioned. One of my eldest S's early recommendations was from someone who he worked with on church mission trips over several years. If the gentleman wrote the kinds of things he went out of the way to tell us about our S after the trips, it had to have helped our S's application whether he was paid for his work or not.</p>

<p>A employer is always looking for someone bright, energetic and eager to learn who sticks with their commitments. I assume adcoms are too. Anything that sincerely conveys that kind of thing about a potential employee or student is bound to have a positive effect.</p>

<p>BTW, the company I work for sponsors community action events every year, doing volunteer work of various types. It's surprising to see how many well paid professionals have never worked with their hands or even climbed a ladder. I wonder if I shouldn't screen for real world experience when hiring in the future. After all, one of my friends was hired because we competed in a basketball league against our competition and he happened to be 6' 5". Maybe it's time to expand the criteria for other important things. :D</p>

<p>I think there's a confusion here between what college adcoms may want and what employers may want.<br>
When I applied to college, my French education and foreign background was a plus. I could have had Advanced Standing had I wanted to.
When I applied for a summer job in a typing pool, this counted for nothing. Another summer, I was a waitress in a French restaurant, and my French background was a definite plus despite the fact that I had no experience waiting on tables and was not able to carry heavy trays.</p>

<p>taking a break for a note of humor:</p>

<p>"...plus despite the fact that I had no experience waiting on tables and was not able to carry heavy trays."</p>

<p>Marite, I think you may have been my waitress, more than once!</p>

<p>p3t:
I only did it one summer. I was able to schmooze in French and slightly broken English, however, so I got great tips!</p>

<p>originaloog: Let us keep the experience aside. It seems that there is a very wide variation in the internship pay. It seems that large corporations pay very well ! I know a kid interning at IBM (will be senior) getting $23/hr. My son (will be Junior) is paid $20/hr. They all also pay relocation allowance + housing allowance. My company also pays about the same. The common norm is to pay fresh hourly worker salary + some delta. The delta is usually calculated as the difference between fresh graduate salary and fresh hourly worker salary devided by 3 or 4.</p>

<p>I know of one penultimate candidate who was paid $30/hr @ Yahoo.</p>

<p>OTOH my S is getting $10/hour for his summer internship at a biotech company here in our area. Wages are relatively lower here, for sure, than major metro areas. But his friends doing house painting etc. are getting 50% more/hour than he is.</p>

<p>But the value of the internship is way more than the pay. A friend's son, college graduate as of June 2007, has a 2 day/week internship in the sports broadcasting field in Boston. Unpaid - zero, zilch, nada. 2 hour drive each way/bunks in with a friend when there, works valet parking at a hotel up here to make a living. BUT... it is a way to break into the field he wants, one that is not so easy to break into.</p>

<p>I guess my concern is that the idea of helping and service even if just to pad will be lost, and that is sad</p>

<p>citygirlsmom: It may very well be lost. However, the recruiting dynamics (specially technical) today 'require' some sort of paid internship. The 'interned' candidates are more valuable. Most large corporations use internships as 'early' hires. At many paces the final year candidates are given offer right after the internships. (Some corporations think that kids are inherently lazy to go through the circus of job interview process if they already have a decent offer).</p>