What Did You Do Last Summer? Jobs. vs. Internships

Parents Forum
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<p>My son has worked as a lifeguard the past three summers because I made him do it. No one really wants to sit for 8 hours a day twirling a whistle. My reasons for requiring employment were not financial on my part. I wanted him to earn his own money so he would appreciate the work that goes into creating one's own cash plus learn the responsibilities that go along with being a good employee. After just a few weeks the first summer there was a noticable change in his attitude. He really grew up. He's gained a real appreciation for the scheduling and staffing problems of his employer. He no longer asks us for money and assumes he will pay for most of his personal expenses himself or offers to pay me back. Thus he looks carefully at the cost/benefit of things before he spends.</p>

<p>My daughter on the other hand has yet to hold down a job other than occasional babysitting. She already knows that such freedom will end next summer. She currently has little appreciation for the cost of her activities or the spending levels she incurs. I just cannot imagine sending her off to college without a better appreciation for money and responsibilities outside of our home. I could care less what colleges will think about whatever job she ends up with or the fact that she won't have participated in educational or enrichment activities over the summer. The college application was never a factor in my desire for my kids to work. Their growing up was always the major consideration.</p>

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<p>The reason why we are even having this debate (and I really think it's silly to debate what's better- jobs, travel, or volunteerism) is because so much emphasis is put on <em>developing a resume for college</em>.</p>

<p>Adcoms have become the "Ben Bernanke's" of the college world- any comments they make are scrutinized, debated, investigated, dissected, and trickle down to our kids' personal life decisions.</p>

<p>If I take away anything positive from this article it is this...maybe in the coming years we will see a change for the better, where students can go back to being students and pursuing what they want instead of what they <em>think</em> they need to get into top schools. Maybe parents won't have to worry that their kids don't have enough <em>stuff</em> on their resume. And kids can go back to finding their own niches.</p>

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<p>Doubleplay...I agree. In some ways, I think the article was saying it is OK to scoop ice cream and you don't have to do X or Y in summers to get into college. I know my kids surely didn't pick their activities around what would appear on the application. That's why I maintain that it does NOT matter if one does a minimum wage job, a trip, an academic program, an enrichment program, community service, etc. in the summer. I do think a student should be engaged in SOMETHING of worthwhile value. But I don't think it really matters so much WHAT it is that they are engaged in doing. The level of participation, the committment, the interest, and in some cases the leadership or achievement that might evolve, are what it is about. I don't think young people should pick their activities around college admissions at all. I know my kids did not and they still ended up at their first choice colleges. They had done things they wanted to do.</p>

<p>Joinville, I think you make an excellent point that your son's job was part of his personal growth. Who cares whether it related to college admissions or career advancement? However, while truly besides the point, I can assure you that adcoms do look favorably at employment. But the whole thing is that even if a kid is a waitress, a lifeguard, a camp counselor, or works at a car wash during the summer in high school, it doesn't have to be with college admissions in mind or with how that job might fit on a resume once they graduate college, but simply that the experience has its own worth......for growth, for life, and in many cases, for money that is needed.</p>

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<p>Some of the stuff I see people putting themselves through reminds me of back when my kids were in elementary school. Things that seemed SO important at the time- being on the Book Battles team, being on "safety patrol" (yeegads, parents would go bananas if their children weren't selected for that one!), having the most stars on the accelerated reader chart (I knew a mom who was a "helper" for the 1st and 2nd graders when they went to do their test- she would practically give them the answers), winning science fair/art contest/geography bee, making the All Star baseball team/Comp Soccer team, the list goes on and on. </p>

<p>Fast forward 6 years, the cleats are gone, the trophies are in a box in the attic, and everyone is worrying about SATs, getting into the "right" school, getting into the honors program, getting a research or internship RIGHT AWAY, etc. How many of those things are going to seem unimportant in another 6 years? </p>

<p>There is an awful lot of Chicken Little-ing going on about what stuff that really has no bearing on future success, or lack thereof. (I can't believe we were actually debating whether of not part time jobs "help" college kids get ahead in the real world.) </p>

<p>I always say It ain't over til the Fat Lady Sings. In another 20 years we'll see kids who were so under the radar they were invisible, and they'll be running companies. There's only so much we as parents, and they as kids, can do right now. The rest is going to be up to them and lady luck.</p>

<p>In my lifetime, I've known many important, powerful, rich, successful people. There is one common denominator that they all share, and it isn't where they went to school, what church they go to, their SAT scores, their hs class rank, whether they were phi beta kappa....
The common denominator is they were and are extremely hard workers.</p>

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<p>SoozieVT, thank you for the lengthy reply. Regarding apples and oranges, this quotation might clear things up:</p>

<p>
[quote]
I actually agree with what Calmom is saying.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If you can't see the differences between your positions and the ones expressed by Calmom, and the unescapable "paid jobs are so much better than unpaid jobs" I have nothing to add to this discussion. </p>

<p>The issue is not about how valuable --or necessary-- starting jobs are. It is easy to recognize that holding such a job will be viewed positively by adcoms or current potential employers. Now, the "problem" starts when someone feels to compelled to add a litany of "this where a paid job is better than a volunteer one" and all that non-sense and pretension about responsibilities and ethics!</p>

<p>As I said, posters simply cling to the theories that fit the activities of their children. While there is nothing wrong with that, repeating the same theories do not elevate to an universal truth. Others have vastly different experiences that easily debunk the anecdotal accounts and unsupported speculation about what ... is best!</p>

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<p>
[quote]
The common denominator is they were and are extremely hard workers.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Fwiw, you may want to add an additional factor in your ANOVA model: pure luck!</p>

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<p>Some were the beneficiaries of the luck factor, but not all. The only commonality was that they worked their behinds off. I'm talking extended periods of time with 12-18 hour work days. Working and going to school at night. Working "around the clock." Being tied to a beeper, woken in the middle of the night. Having to go to a job site on Christmas morning because pipes burst and it's your company, and no one else is available. Getting up at 3 AM. Traveling 7 days a week.....</p>

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<p>Xiggi, people are just expressing opinions and sharing experiences on this topic. None of it is proven fact. </p>

<p>As far as quoting that I said I agree with Calmom, you took the quote out of context. I explained whatever it was that I agreed with. Whether I agree with every sentence she has written on this thread, I have no idea. But I agreed with whatever I explained in my subsequent posts. </p>

<p>I do not think paid work is necessarily more valuable than volunteer work. But it has value for different reasons and is beneficial in different ways. One is not better than the other but there are some differences, including on a resume. Both have value, in my opinion. So that is my statement on that point that you just raised. </p>

<p>But I'd have to go back to the posts I have made on this thread where I agreed with some things Calmom said and I believe I expressed exactly whatever points it was that she made that I was in agreement with at the time.</p>

<p>Doubleplay....I agree that hard work is the common denominator involved in getting ahead.
Xiggi, luck can surely play a factor, but since one cannot count on luck, one better work hard.</p>

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<p>DP, are you saying that the ONLY commonality of "important, powerful, rich, successful people" is that they worked their behinds off?</p>

<p>Aren't there quite a few members of that elite group who have yet to work a single day in their successful life? Ever heard the term "heir?"</p>

<p>And on the other hand, aren't there millions of people who worked their behinds off and lived a life of poverty --at least in the way our society measures wealth?</p>

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<p>SVt, a good start are posts 135 through 138. That's where I lifted the quotation from. </p>

<p>Then there is post 141 ... do you agree with the statement of Calmom I called a "strange sandwich?"</p>

<p>
[quote]
SoozieVT, the only thing I can do is READ the statement by Calmom, and not read BETWEEN the lines to find some half-truths.</p>

<p>the kids who have work experience in high school generally are better able to find paying work when they want it. Employers are more likely to hire people who have experience; and kids who have worked and been through the job search and interview process are much more likely to go about finding work in an efficient and effective manner.

[/quote]
</p>

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<p>The richest of the rich work hard, not inherit money. In fact, Bill Gates just stop working to devote his time to philantrophy and SLIM the new billionaire from Mexico is already taken over the #1 spot.
The New York Times had an article about the top .001 percent, here is the link</p>

<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/15/business/15gilded.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/15/business/15gilded.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Mexican' world richest person</p>

<p><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6267714.stm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6267714.stm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Xiggi, in post 138 I was very specific about which points of Calmom's I agreed with and I still do agree with her on the points I outlined in that post. I'm not going to go over those again but read my post 138 that goes over which specific points of Calmom's I was concurring with.</p>

<p>As far as your point copied again here from post 141....I think when someone has work experience on a resume, it helps the next time they want to get a job, particularly a related one, or in some cases, when the person is young, just to show that they have held a job before. I have explained elsewhere on this thread, that the work experiences my D had on her resume from her high school years, including recommendations from employers, landed her the next job she got in France doing related work during the summer following soph year in college. So, I was very glad she had work experience that enabled her to land the jobs she wanted later on in the summers during college. I also agree with calmom that when someone has been through the interview, resume, cover letter process, it only helps them improve and grow as they pursue such experiences further down the line at the next level of employment. My kids have had to compose many cover letters and resumes for different purposes the last several years and I am sure each experience is beneficial in building up for the next experiences to come. It only makes logical sense to me that someone with experience can build upon that and others are starting out for the first time might not be as at ease or as good at the process. </p>

<p>Somewhat related, is that I also have a child who for SOME jobs she does, the performance ones (which are not the only jobs she does in her field), must audition. I have NO doubt in my mind that the fact that she likely has auditioned approximately 100 times in her life, that she is better at auditioning and carrying herself in such situations now than some who have little experiencing doing so. Same with interviewing. Same with crafting various resumes. Same with building up the resume with previous work experiences. Her two work resumes (she has two as each focuses on a different facet of her profession) are very full and she has to constantly cut out previous work experiences to make room for new ones. I do believe it helps that she has work to show on a resume when she looks for jobs now. While she is 18, she is obtaining some professional level jobs and/or jobs that usually go to older people (I am not talking ONLY performance jobs either) because she has the experience to prove her skills at getting the job. Without the resume of work experience, she would not be obtaining the jobs she currently has.</p>

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<p>SoozieVt, all the points you're making are about experience in general. Calmom's points were about how the experience of a PAID job is better "to find paying work when they want it and kids who have worked and been through the job search and interview process are much more likely to go about finding work in an efficient and effective manner."</p>

<p>I agreed (a long time) with "Employers are more likely to hire people who have experience" but I maintain that the experience could come from an unpaid position at an organization. And for what it is worth, I'll add that there is NO DOUBT in my mind that activities that were CREATED and DEVELOPED by the student are vastly superior to the type of jobs Calmom's described --including the ones that come with key to safe or the doors!</p>

<p>And, fwiw, I also maintain that the connections between the positions one could expect after graduation from the schools typically debated in this forum and the jobs teens typically hold are strenuous at best, if not entirely figments of one's fertile imagination and idle speculation.</p>

<p>There is absolutely nothing wrong with scooping icecream or folding clothes, but pretending that the experience of filling a small application or learning how to punch a time clock are BETTER for a professional future than unpaid activities is simply ... well pretentious! </p>

<p>To each its own!</p>

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<p>as far as "work" experience goes, my Ds put down their internships on their resume and do it proudly</p>

<p>their recommendations from those places have been amazing</p>

<p>xiggi, you and I agree....and the experiences aren't so "different" between paid and unpaid in many cases, this idea that paid is so much superior on a resume is just not true</p>

<p>I have seen lazy, just get through it kids in both places, and just because you get paid, does not mean suddenly you have all these amazing skills and virtues, that assumption, as xiggi put it, is pretentious</p>

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<p>Xiggi, I can only represent myself here, not another poster. Several things Calmom has posted, I do agree with. But I am not her. </p>

<p>I think that both unpaid and paid work help a candidate to later obtain work. Both unpaid and paid work are valuable experiences to have. I do think that employers will look favorably upon someone who has previous work experience of the paid sort but if they don't have previous paid jobs, they certainly will look at volunteer positions and internships and the like and in a favorable light. At a certain point in time, it is going to EVENTUALLY look better to build a resume of paid employment. But for a STUDENT starting out, unpaid work experiences and internships will also be quite beneficial if they haven't yet built up their paid job experience. </p>

<p>You keep talking about positions one could expect after graduation. By graduation, I have a feeling you are referring to COLLEGE graduation. Again, I will say that the jobs my kids had in high school, helped with summer jobs in college. I don't necessarily think their HS jobs are the ones that will help them with their jobs post college or graduate school. We are not talking about the same thing. The paid jobs my kids had earlier have benefitted them now. But the jobs they have now are the ones that are what will be on their resumes post college and the high school ones have come off. </p>

<p>I really did not hear anyone saying that jobs like waitressing, lifeguarding and the like are better for a professional future. I believe many have said, including myself, that these jobs were of value in and of themselves.....responsible work, earning money, etc. and that these jobs helped get other paying jobs on the next round. I do not think the lifeguard job secures the job at Goldman Sachs, nope. But that doesn't mean the lifeguard job is not important on a very early teen resume who looks for a summer job in college who can show work experience, and also the job itself is a learning experience, as well as a source of income which many teens and young adults need to obtain. I don't think every single job that a teen or college student holds MUST be related to their career objectives. I, for one, am real glad one of my kids taught in a language immersion program in France because she wanted the experience for its own sake, not for her career development. It also allowed her to fund her foreign travel by working there. Not everything she has done in life is narrowly focused on her career objectives. Many things she does because of sheer interest and they benefit her in the game of life. Interestingly, she was at a panel discussion of reps from graduate schools in her field who said they looked favorably upon those who did college varsity sports (which she does) and its reflection of work ethic to balance the demanding schedule with high level academic performance. So, to be honest, I think even for career development, employers or others do look favorably upon experiences of any sort that demonstrate certain personal attributes, even if not every activity was in the related field. </p>

<p>You also need to remember that many young people, my own kids included, work jobs that ARE in their career fields. My kids have and are doing so again this summer. Again, all their experiences have had value but for different reasons. </p>

<p>I would agree with the idea that activities created and developed by a young person will appear very good on a resume. Frankly, my kids have initiated some of their own jobs. I do have one child who has created several of her jobs and is paid well to do them. So, yes, that sort of creation, development, and directing are good things on a resume. But I also think being employed in a responsible job shows some other positive things as well. It need not be either/or. Working for someone else demonstrates certain things that employers like to see. Being someone who initiated and created a program/project/service/job also looks good for other reasons. I'm glad my kids have done some of each. Some of the jobs and services that they have initiated have paid quite well and are not volunteer, though they have led things that are also unpaid as well. </p>

<p>I think one thing I see as a theme in your posts is doing things that will look good for post college graduation employment. While it is important to keep doing work in one's field and to build that up, I don't think every single thing a young person does HAS to be for building their post college career. Lots of things my kids are doing DO relate to their careers, but they do some things that interest them that don't have a relation to post college work but for its own sake, interest, or even pay. I don't think everything in life has to relate to getting ahead.</p>

<p>BTW, some are saying it is "pretentious" to elevate paid work over volunteer work (for the record, I am not saying one is better but that both have value)...but if you think that is pretentious, many others may think that someone who says a teen should be doing all volunteer work related to career advancement while in high school and college is pretentious because MANY teens and young adults MUST earn money and do not have the luxury of ONLY doing volunteer work or ONLY doing work related to career advancement.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I really did not hear anyone saying that jobs like waitressing, lifeguarding and the like are better for a professional future. I believe many have said, including myself, that these jobs were of value in and of themselves.....responsible work, earning money, etc. and that these jobs helped get other paying jobs on the next round.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>SoozieVT, I have tremendous respect for your willingness to reply in great details to the points I made. However, we do not seem to draw the same conclusions about what people DID write. We are simply going in circles about the literal meaning of other people's post. </p>

<p>My issue was never about a statement that "these jobs helped get other paying jobs on the next round" but those jobs were BETTER than ... others. </p>

<p>I may have misunderstood YOUR position, so I'll now conclude that you agree that those ARE NOT better than volunteer work in the context of future employment, and that salami slicing and icecream scopping do NOT provide a better pipeline to a job in line with one's education.</p>

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<p>Again, Xig....I can only speak for myself, not another poster's thoughts. I have agreed with many things that Calmom has written on this thread and I have tried to detail my own thoughts. Whether I agree with every sentence another poster wrote, I can't say, nor have I taken the time to pick it apart. I have represented solely my OWN positions and can just answer about those. I can't interpret the meanings of another member's posts. You may wish to direct questions to them about what they were trying to say. I have stated in several posts my own opinions or reactions to other posts, including your own.</p>

<p>Again, I don't believe that menial OR paid work is better than volunteer work. But I do believe that paid work has great value. Many times, employers like to see previous paid employment. If one doesn't have that, then volunteer jobs and internships will suffice. A young person has to start somewhere. Also, as I said, certain jobs in high school and some during college may NOT relate to career objectives. But other internships, paid jobs, or volunteer work in their interest area would also be important to build up so that one might get a job after college and be able to demonstrate work in the field of interest. Both types of experience are of value for DIFFERENT REASONS. I don't expect my kid's job waiting tables to help with post college employment in her career. But those jobs at the time helped get another job as a student or in summers and so were helpful in that regard for that period of life. Those jobs will fall off the resume as they obtain more jobs in their fields. For one of my kids, all of her jobs, both paid and unpaid have been related to her field, actually. Her field has been her passion since nursery school. For my other kid, it would be hard to get work in her field unless she had some skills/education. She now does and so has secured an internship in a firm in her field. That was harder to do as a teen (though she had one internship as a teen in her field that included a stipend). However, she had to work to earn money to take to college and to fund some summer things while in college and so the jobs she held when younger served that purpose as well. The goal of the job teaching children, in other words, was not to build her resume for professional work in her field some day. Not every job she has ever done was with resume building in mind. There is a limit to how much paid architecture work (her field...but substitute another field like banking) that a teen can get. She had to do paid jobs. Now, she has more education and experience and can get some work in her field.</p>

<p>Again, I believe both paid work and volunteer work in one's field will be helpful post college graduation. If possible, paid work in the field may trump volunteer work but I think a young college graduate might not be expected to have had many paid professional jobs yet on the resume (thus one reason to GO to college, LOL). However, my kids DO have paid work on their resumes in their field and have not yet graduated college. For those who do not have this, then volunteer work in their field is important to do plus even showing any employment would be helpful because even if UNRELATED, it at least shows other attributes that come with holding a job. </p>

<p>I do not believe ANYONE here said that salami slicing and ice cream scooping provide a BETTER PIPELINE TO A JOB IN LINE WITH ONE'S EDUCATION. Obviously, if one wants to become a teacher, for instance, having some job expereince teaching children will help the resume more than their job at the scoop shop. Nobody said the job at the scoop shop would be better or help them more for the career job later in their field. However, both sorts of jobs are of value. The job at the scoop shop helped the teen earn money for that stage in life. The student also learned certain attributes that come with the responsibilities of a job. The student also had some initial work experience on the resume so that when an employer wanted to hire them, they can see they had held a job before. As the student matures, hopefully, they can eventually obtain some paid work in their field of study which will show experience to employers post college that they have e xperience in the FIELD. Volunteer work and internships also can serve that purpose if the student cannot find paid work in their field of study. For some students, which I think you may fail to realize, they may do a volunteer/internship in their career field to help learn more a bout it and to build the resume for future career employment and ALSO work a menial job slicing salami to earn INCOME because they HAVE to. Lots of young people I know HAVE to have a paying job. They hopefully can get one in their field but if not, they take a job outside their field to earn bucks and then do an internship or volunteer work in their intended career field to gain experience in the field which is important to do.</p>

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<p>soozievt -- I don't have a clue as to what Xiggi means in terms of my posts *vis a vis *yours -- as far as I can tell your posts are in 100% agreement with what I have written. I have said that employers place high value on actual (paid) work experience and I stand by that.</p>

<p>You are doing a really great job explaining my point of view, by the way. ;)</p>

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<p>Calmom, nice backpedalling try! </p>

<p>Your last statement "I have said that employers place high value on actual (paid) work experience and I stand by that." is not exactly the same as "The kids who have work experience in high school generally are better able to find paying work when they want it. Employers are more likely to hire people who have experience; and kids who have worked and been through the job search and interview process are much more likely to go about finding work in an efficient and effective manner. *They just have a better sense of what they want, how to present themselves, and where they are likely to be hired. *"</p>

<p>Further, weren't YOUR words presenting comparisons as opposed to absolute statements? </p>

<p>I said that paid employees have opportunities for more responsibility. There are legal & ethical reasons that in the workplace some *responsibilities cannot be entrusted to volunteers. *</p>

<p>I also learned something a long time ago, back in the days that I had volunteer & internship positions -- it wasn't always the best path toward a job.</p>

<p>Volunteer work is valuable and important, but it is not the same as paid work. **For one thing, the screening process to get hired is tougher when a pay check is involved. The workplace environment tends to be somewhat different when a paycheck is involved as well; employers are more demanding and critical than people supervising volunteers, but paid employees also will be **entrusted with greater responsibility over time because employers view them as more reliable simply because they are on the payroll. So while the work may start out as menial, the opportunities for growth and promotion are greater.</p>

<p>And lastly, since you "can see why college ad coms would have high regard for a student with a history of continuous employment at a "real" job." do you think they'll view a history of "employment" as an unpaid volunteer in a ... more discriminating manner? Yes or no will do!</p>

<p>Fwiw, your statement "I don't have a clue" is a tempting one to take out of context. In the meantime, I hope that the above will help you understand the *vis-</p>

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<p>my Ds volunteered because they could and have been doing it since before you are legally allowed to work, so they indeed have a longer history than many who are employed</p>

<p>what no one has mentioned is the connections that one can make as a side benefit to volunteering- say you want to be a Dr and volunteer in a hospital, you can meet all kind of people</p>

<p>or in my D's case, volunteer at City Hall- the people she met because of the good job she did are invaluable</p>

<p>this was not a luxary, ot was a three hour a D commitment throughout her summer, she could not give enough hours to an employer because of a six hour a day class she was taking</p>

<p>because of her volunteering, she is almost guarantted an paid internship at a law firm in 2 years- something that is prized</p>

<p>so this notion that many employers don't appreciate voluteering is just not true</p>