What Did You Do Last Summer? Jobs. vs. Internships

Parents Forum
101

<p>
[quote]
>>Simba, that is a generalized, non factual statement. Are you assuming because people are poor that they adverse to working?<<</p>

<p>I have seen the point Simba made in action. </p>

<p>I know a neighbor whose D gets financial aid from her college. I remember the first summer her D was home from college, she didn't have a job. The neighbor told me that she was unsure how the summer job would affect the financial aid package, and they really couldn't afford to have the financial aid package decreased. So rather than jeopardize the financial aid package, the D didn't work.</p>

<p>The neighbor must have figured it out, because the D has worked the last two summers.</p>

<p>It really had nothing to do with "laziness" or an unwillingness to work, but with a real fear about how the financial aid system works and the concern of screwing something up unintentionally.</p>

<p>and I think that was Simba's point.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'll add to the comments of Simba and LMNOP. It is a FACT that there are disincentives to accept employment in the summer while receiving financial aid. The poster who decided to attack Simba for his comment should indeed read the scholarship forum. Factual evidence would show that students who work in the summer and earn more than their FAFSA exclusion will be penalized by the colleges offering grants. Students who have a "full ride" know that the combination of scholarships and EARNINGS cannot exceed the COA. This means that the money earned would simply reduce the grants DOLLAR FOR DOLLAR, with the added "annoyance" that non work-study jobs also carry withholding for social security, often a self-employed level. </p>

<p>The long and the short of this is that for some it is a mistake to ... seek some income from work, leaving the student only with "volunteer" activities. The contradiction is obvious: students who have full financial aid, while being among the neediest, have to adopt a "lazy" profile in the summer. </p>

<p>By the way, nobody should be unsure about how student employment is assessed for FAFSA purposes, as the information is very clear.</p>

102

<p>K to clarify for the umpteenth time</p>

<p>I don't belittle jobs, or working or "menial" tasks, my issue it that the article belittle volunteering, exploring, and the like, saying that those activities don't give you the same work ethic that having a job does</p>

<p>I am saying that to assume the only way to have a work ethic, to be team player, to get trhough tedium etc, is to be paid for your time</p>

<p>I find that false</p>

<p>I was pointing out that many of my Ds friends work, and they are often no more responsible than those that use their time in other ways</p>

<p>the admissions people quoted in the article said, well, we like that kids work becuase it shows they can blah blah blah, while those that don't get paid probably don't have that blah blah blah, and that is hogwash</p>

<p>My Ds volunteer work is often tedious, boring, and blechy, but it also teaches them teamwork, being responsible, and what goes on behind the scenes....the article implied that anything less then getting paid for what you do is going to be scene as less valued in the eyes of college admissions people and that is just wrong</p>

<p>and DP., people tend to minimize the work of volunteers, if anyone thinks working with AIDS babies is just a simple thing, think again, and sometimes service experiences are so draining emotionally, often people look to other places</p>

<p>just because someone only helped in an orphanage for one summer means nothing- ever here of burn out?</p>

<p>so many here act like volunteering is not worthy of respect, and that saddens me </p>

<p>I don't know, getting on the phone for 5 hours at a shot during election time getting out the vote, getting cussed at, hung up on, or getting a big thank you teaches a lot</p>

<p>Working at a senior home 8 hours a week helping disabled, sad, people instead of getting a paycheck elsewhere is NOT less valuable to the student</p>

<p>My D is getting a paycheck this summer, as a TA at her school, she grades papers, files, and has run the class a few times, creating a lesson plan</p>

<p>She then does the magazine stint, and also the senior home- she is putting in 40 hours a week this summer at three different jobs, one of which is paid</p>

<p>what I percived as a negative tone in the article was that it put forth the notion that work is more prized than doing other things, that can often give the same results as work, and should also be prized</p>

<p>I guess I just hope that many kids don't turn around and go, gee getting a paycheck is seen as more valued than helping people because it is the right thing to do</p>

103

<p>
[quote]
nor is it the admissions people to make assumptions that people who work have more skills than those that don't get paid, that is a huge judgement to make

[/quote]
Amen to that. It is almost taking us back to the time when more women were trying to enter the workforce and they were discounted as having "no" experience, compared to their paid counterparts. These women ran households, ran PTA's, raised huge money in charity fundraisers, manned soup kitchens, <em>started</em> charitable organizations and on and on and on. Let's not go there and now discount volunteer work for ANYone - whether it be kids who can "afford" not to work or not. Grr.</p>

<p>It is a part of our culture, though, that people are measured by what they get paid - we can't get away from it probably. But we needn't assume that those who make the big bucks are wiser/smarter/better than those who don't. We are stuck with Michael Jordan (and I like him, btw) making tons more than the best teacher we ever had. But we don't have to assume he is a more talented person in every regard.</p>

104

<p>There's a whole other category of how students might spend their summer responsibly that is neither work nor volunteer -- doing a yeoman's task on 2 months of chores to solve a major family transition or medical emergency.</p>

<p>Examples: assist an international household move; help a parent through surgery and significant rehab; spend structured hours with a resident grandparent to reduce the costs of professional caregivers, mother's helper if a brand new baby comes into the house,etc.</p>

<p>It's not a paying job, but it's not volunteer community service, either. If it were for another family, it could sound like quite a summer of service. Somehow, when it's for one's own family, it doesn't "count." And it's a lot more than random or normal chores.</p>

105

<p>
[quote]
I understand why you think these menial jobs add value--but as someone who did those jobs to death as a youngster, I am convinced that the vast majority of teen jobs not only do not add value, the vast majority of those jobs are unhealthy for the non-material soul.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Cheers, I am in your camp on this one! There is one HUGE value that is overlooked: menial and soul wrecking jobs provide the best incentive to ... do well enough in school to NEVER ever having to participate in activities OTHERS tell you will be positive for you. Digging enough ditches and placing enough shingles on a parched roof is the best antidote for anyone not to ever touch a shovel or a nailgun. </p>

<p>Fwiw, is this not a good time to analyze the correlation** between the availablity of teens' job and the number of school dropouts? How do the countries were jobs for teenagers are a rarity ... manage?</p>

<p>**Yep, yep - preemptive statement to avoid the pompous "correlation is no causation" that is showing up with such regularity on CC. :)</p>

106

<p>There's hardly anything revealing in the article. Those who read Michelle Hernandez's ten-year-old-book got the same info. The gist is simply that you don't automatically get an "A" for public service or humanitarian concern or even academic interest just by being involved with somthing for the summer. Those who are unhappy that their own activities might be "unfairly" discounted can simply do a good job explaining how valuable they were......and the admissions officers will be the judge of it as they always have been.</p>

107

<p>P3T:</p>

<p>If I were an adcom, it would surely count, as does babysitting one's siblings or working in the family restaurant or store. Any of these tasks would make for a terrific essay.</p>

108

<p>cheers, with respect, I just couldn't disagree with you more. And I don't see why part of promoting the value of "intrinsically valuable" volunteer and travel activities needs to go hand-in-hand with disparaging "menial" work.</p>

<p>First, I actually do think that there is value in suffering through rote, boring summer jobs. There is value in deducing that you are still <em>you</em>, with a great brain, great energy... even if you are not using those attributes at the moment.</p>

<p>Second, there is value in learning how to cope with that situation. Not everyone can be in their first choice, stimulating occupation all of the time.</p>

<p>Third, I truly truly believe there is value in walking in someone else's shoes - especially the <em>someone elses</em> whose efforts make the world go round for most of us lots of the time.</p>

<p>Next, since you chose DQ for your little riff, LOL.... my son spent his first two summer jobs in the "ice cream" industry. Believe it or not, in that very first job - a locally owned, hand-made ice cream chain of a few stores - he learned quite a bit about corporate culture. The owners had a Mission Statement - just like Fortune 500 companies. They emphasized the importance of treating customers in a certain way. He got every bit from this experience as if he'd had a paid or volunteer job at some major corporation in his eventual field. In his second ice cream job, he was promoted to manager and ice cream maker. Lofty positions, yes? Well, duh, no. But he clearly had learned or exhibited the "what is worth doing is worth doing well", I guess, to be chosen for those promotions. </p>

<p>He learned how to change from "one of the crew" to part-time boss and relate well to his peers without bossiness, without arrogance, without engendering resentment (probably not part of his personality, anyway) and also without feeling apologetic for now being in that position and without fearing to carry out management responsibilities when the managees were his own close friends.</p>

<p>"Getting the ice cream just right" is not a skill he will ever need in his chosen career. "Getting the _______ just right" most assuredly is an attitude he will need in whatever path he takes. </p>

<p>"Making sure the patrons don't put their feet on the seats?" is also not a skill a teen is likely to need post-BA. However, learning how to relate to customers in dicey situations, how to handle difficult people, how to communicate in awkward moments - all of these are valuable life skills.</p>

<p>Bottom line, I just don't get it. Why do any of us need to demean or question the motives of any of the players we are discussing here - those who work for pay (whether to fund their needs or fund their wants), those who travel, those who volunteer, those who study in the summer....? </p>

<p>Promote the value of your favorite summer occupation. Just don't tell others of us that different choices are inferior or, worse, suspect.</p>

109

<p>Quite frankly, I'm having a hard time tolerating the fact that, not just once but repeatedly, certain of us are accused of belittling others, devaluing volunteerism, etc. I do not think this is fair and I will ask a moderator what the terms of discourse are for these situations. </p>

<p>If you review that past five pages I challenge you to find a post by me or any others, who wrote testimonials about their kids' working part time, that demeans your daughters or any kids who do not work for pay.</p>

<p>As I said before, the article's tone has been tried in the CC court and found somewhat offensive to some- fair enough. </p>

<p>But the discussion moved into the territory of summer jobs. If someone were to NOT carefully read this entire thread, they would come to very wrong and unflattering conclusions about my past posts as well as those of others.</p>

<p>I've seen this happen on other threads as well, and it's disturbing. Sort of like yelling fire in a crowded theater. Say something enough times, and people do not go back and read for themselves; they take your word for it. And then a great big CC pig pile forms with very innocent people having to defend themselves for words they never even wrote!</p>

<p>Stuff like "so many here act like volunteering is not worthy of respect, and that saddens me " is VERY UNFAIR, since I haven't read ANYTHING by ANY poster on this thread that even remotely approaches that sentiment.</p>

<p>And you're also misquoting the adcom's comments in the article.</p>

110

<p>I think it just matters that the child is doing something to fill up a portion of their time. I also think that having the kids invested in paying for part of college is good. </p>

<p>One child is in his 3rd year at the same summer employer. He is now a supervisor and really seems to enjoy going to work. He supervises high school kids, and gets to do scheduling, making sure the employees take breaks, etc. He gets to work with plenty of other kids his age, and has made some good friends. He also likes having spending money that he does not have to beg out of his cheap parents. This experience has been great.</p>

<p>Another daughter started her first job a couple months ago. She is not the patient type, and she had to go through 3 interviews to get the job. This alone was a great experience for her. She is working with kids, and since she wants to be a teacher it is a good situation. She really likes what she is doing and would probably do it for free at this point if she had to. We are pleased that both children are happy to be going to work for the day – happier than we are sometimes.</p>

<p>Ultimately, it is probably important that the person does something to challenge themselves. Whether it is work or something else, keeping busy and productive is important. A bored teenager is not usually a pleasant thing…</p>

111

<p>Instead, many college-bound young people are in summer school, doing volunteer work, or on a trip to the Third World -- sometimes more to spice up their college applications than out of genuine interest, admissions officers say."</p>

<p>gee, no bias there....no putting down helping others there, even if it is a by product</p>

<p>"Summer travel and study can make students more worldly or civic-minded, but often fail to teach how to persevere through boredom, take orders, or work with people from different backgrounds, admissions deans say."</p>

<p>that is just not true-and so what if it isnt tedious, do we just want kids who haven't seen another country or met people from other parts of the world...when my D went to england last summer, she met kids from everywhere, and that was invaluable, or do we just wnat kids who are around their own cummunities all the time, with little exploration-</p>

<p>Students who are not willing to juggle a paid job and community service often figure the resume boost of volunteering outweighs the toll it takes on their wallet, or rather, their parents' wallets. Eric McCurry , 16, has two volunteer jobs this summer, as a first responder with an ambulance service and an office worker at the Alzheimer's Association. That will help him earn a special diploma his New York state public high school awards to graduates who do enough community service.</p>

<p>the word unwillingness is a put down at best</p>

<p>again, the article implies that much volutneer and travel is just for show and doesn't do much good, and that is just not true....</p>

112

<p>In this age of "hate America" throughout the world, i think the more Americans that can travel should....and if it can be afforded, why not? we are buy no means rich, but travel and study abroad have been something we have managed to pull off....</p>

<p>I don't know, I just think the more variety you have in a class, the more who can bring in stories about China, and orphanages, and building huts with mother Theresa, and seeing the Vatican, and going to Northern Ireland, and or interning at City Hall, or going to Australia and seeing the coral reefs, the better everyone is</p>

<p>until people started to step out into the world, the less understanding we had</p>

<p>it is great to work but that is not the only place to learn valuable life lessons- and not all life lessons should be about work and getting check to see how much Uncle Sam gets</p>

<p>THe world is full of those in need, and the world is full of strange and interesting places, and so what if a parent spends some $$ to give their kid a chance to see some of it</p>

<p>My travel when I was younger was amazing....and as the world is going through some major changes, if we don't have people out there looking and seeing, no matter where it is, well, we will be sorry</p>

<p>I care if some one is "building huts with Mother Theresa" and so what if mom and dad paid for that kid to go there, it is a good thing to do</p>

<p>If a kid goes to Mexico as an Ambassodor and sees what is going on, that is a good thing</p>

<p>If a kid volunteers at Laguna Honda and gets stressed out and stops after one summer, so what...the good they did for that ammount of time should be lauded, not be made suspect</p>

113

<p>OK cgm, if your problem is with the adcoms in the article, please quit referring to us posters when you talk about people making disparaging remarks and having nefarious hidden agendas. Thanks.</p>

114

<p>If you continue reading the article (pertaining to Eric McCarty) you'll see that it's his own mom that seems to be the most vexed about it, not the adcoms.</p>

115

<p>It's funny to see admissions officers quoted re: the virtues of a "regular" job as opposed to some exotic or blockbuster service prgm. These admissions officers are the same ones who insist that, even w/ ECs and vol work, a candiate must disting him/herself - - not enough to shelve books at the local library, the successful applicant starts a food bank or other program that then goes national, or better still, goes global.</p>

<p>And of course the admissions officers are making judgments about the relative value of diff experiences - - but that's not to say the adcoms are infallible or that we have to agree w/ their assessments.</p>

<p>As for volunteering vs working vs travel. Each has value, but each teaches something different. Foreign travel is a wonderful, enriching experience. My only complaint has been that students (the padders) overstate the "service" aspect of what was really a trip for personal growth. As an earlier poster noted regarding S's trip; it was was life-changing for him, even if it contrib little to the host community. But I rarely hear this sentiment from trip participants (perhaps b/c of their youth).</p>

<p>D was very jealous of a wealthy friend's 4 wk trip to Tanzania last summer ($5300 + airfare). I explained to D, and I maintain, that it would be far more of a service to that village to collect $3000 per/vol and hire local skilled labor, than to host a swarm of unskilled teens. </p>

<p>Sadly, I think the padding - and sniping re: the relative merit/value of other people choices - are a sad, but not unexpected, outgrowth of an increasingly compet college admissions process.</p>

116

<p>Maybe one of those unskilled teens joins the Peace Corp, and another decides to become a doctor, and maybe another decides to go back the next year</p>

<p>the idea that going to help doesn't do much is so wrong- it can help in many ways</p>

<p>and the more people we have go "over there" and make some impact that better off we all are</p>

<p>My Ds school funds orphranges in Tanzania- if would be wonderful if one of our students went there and saw the impact of the $, and then came back and said, hey we are making something happen, we need to raise more</p>

<p>dontating to the SPCA is one thing, going down there and seeing it is quite something else, it inspires passion and going to Tanzania naive and unskilled, isn't that how life works sometimes?</p>

<p>It like saying, well, its just $, so give that instead of time, and hearts, and effort</p>

<p>And if that trip ignites something inside of some jaded teen, excellent</p>

<p>We spent several Saturday's laying down irrigation lines at the local zoo- volunteers all- we volunteered with kids from shelters, wtih some rich folks, with some old ladies and other young families- it was incredibaly rewarding for each and every one of us- </p>

<p>when we first got there, people kind of stayed with their group, but after a little bit, everyone was working together, getting down and dirty, and our unskilled group did the job well- and it mattered not where we came from or how got there, it mattered that we did it because it needed to be done</p>

<p>I never knew how gross our beaches could be until we went there and really started to pickup trash</p>

<p>My Ds never really knew about disabilities until we served lunch to a group that works with differnently abled</p>

<p>I never knew much about politics until, at 19 I worked for my first campaign</p>

<p>My Ds never knew much about cerebral palsy until we voluneered at a race</p>

<p>Sometimes just giving $ is not enough</p>

<p>We could just buy towels for our local Animal Care and Control who is in need, but instead, we are going to all our friends with dogs and asking for them to give us an old towel or two, to raise awarness of the needs of various shelters</p>

<p>We could just buy blankets for sick children at hospitals instead of teaching teens to make them, at least a few</p>

<p>We could just donate $ instead of also making the sandwiches for the homeless shelter, using our time</p>

<p>We could just buy some cans and donate to the food bank, instead of going down and sorting kiwis and peaches</p>

<p>THere is something to be said for doing, not just giving</p>

117

<p>CGM, in all due respect, I have not read any posters on this thread put down volunteering. I hear many saying that it is of great value, as much as paid work. </p>

<p>I also have not read any posters putting down summer enrichment programs, internships, or travel experiences. Most have explained the value that their kids have gotten from such activities. </p>

<p>If anything, I HAVE read some who put down teens doing paid jobs, especially the more "menial" type jobs that teens often obtain (and some NEED to do to earn funds for college or necessities).</p>

<p>When you point to the article, (which again, doesn't represent any of the CC members posting here, though you seem to be attributing certain opinions to us anyway), I think some posters have pointed out that the article was saying that adcoms are less impressed with community service or travel or such programs IF they sense it was not out of genuine interest but more of a resume padder. If they see some linkage to other interests/experiences that the student has the rest of the year, it comes across differently. I do not think they frown upon travel programs, enrichment camps, volunteering, etc. To the contrary, look at the umpteen kids in very selective colleges currently who have done all these things and more (my own kids included, LOL)! </p>

<p>I really don't think one needs to compare which summer experience is more worthy, valid, or valuable. I think ALL these types of experiences hold value for different reasons. I think adcoms want to see anything worthwhile, not simply hanging out all summer. I also think they were saying that while some may think that menial jobs don't "look good," they actually ARE looked upon favorably (as are programs, travel, volunteering). In other words, students who do teen jobs should realize these are considered of value ALSO to adcoms and they do not HAVE to have done some enrichment program to get into college (but it is OK if they have!). </p>

<p>Paying3tuitions, actually adcoms would also look quite favorably upon an essay to do with a student helping a grandparent, family members, younger sibs, etc. as a summer experience. I have seen literature about this as well as exemplary college essays addressing this very thing. </p>

<p>I think people need to worry less as to WHAT the summer activity is but more simply that a student is picking an activity to do for good reasons, including genuine interest (or need) and one that is worthy for its own sake.</p>

118

<p>CGM, regarding post #116 (and some others of yours), you are preaching to the choir. I think EVERYONE here would agree that volunteer work and also global travel are very valuable experiences!</p>

119

<p>Or in some cases, a student did a lot of travelling already, did a lot of volunteer/internship already. It's time to try something different. Also just because a student works does not preclude that student from playing tennis in the summer or do other volunteer work.
For example, D has 3-4 things this summer: internship/volunteer, work, summer school, class for her EC in the fall.
I do believe work teaches a powerful ecomomic lesson, after tally up all the expenses(gas,lunches) and income, D realizes she does not have much left over for saving. My hunch is that she is NOT going to get into a job that will pay just above minimum wages. However, she would have glad to do this job even without pay, simply because it ties with her EC.</p>

120

<p>I confess that I did nothing of interests the summer before I applied to college. I didn't work, traveled alone, nor anything that could be construed as volunteer works to save humanity. I spent a few weeks with my family at Lake Cuomo. There and at home, I read a lot. I remembered reading Kant's treatise on morality and novels by CP Snow and Anthony Powell. </p>

<p>I guess I was a true slacker but then college adcoms were more understanding back then.</p>