<p>TooRichForAid...I agree with what you wrote above. Some kids do a combination of these things and that is pretty much the case with my own children. It need not be EITHER/OR. </p>
<p>I also agree that my kids have also done paid jobs that they would love to do even if it never paid. Also, some paid jobs tie in with extracurriculars or even academic/career pursuits. </p>
<p>I can think of one of my D's current paying jobs (she has more than one) in which she is being paid very well, she was so psyched for the opportunity and when I simply inquired what she would be paid for it, she said, "I don't care....I'd do this for free!!!!" (though she needs the money) Actually upon rereading what I wrote about one D's current job, I realize it applies to the other D too! LOL</p>
<p>"For example, D has 3-4 things this summer: internship/volunteer, work, summer school, class for her EC in the fall."</p>
<p>Exactly. When mine was in hs the summer before his senior year he did football conditioning in the morning, summer league baseball and/or passing league football in the evening, worked at a car wash in the afternoon (at least he could get wet!), went to Boys State, shadowed a gastroenterologist (that was interesting!), did a weeklong engineering camp at our local university, had to do physical therapy for his separated shoulder at 6:30 AM (!!!) and STILL had time to mess around on the beach and par-tay. Whew! I still don't know how he did it, but young people have boundless energy.</p>
<p>again, so what if a volunteer experience doesn't link up with something else? my goodnes gracious</p>
<p>after reading the same article, the sense I got was that the admiss people they quoted were not impressed with volunteering and thought work was cute and quaint and somehow more worthy</p>
<p>bad journalism at its finest</p>
<p>and, there were several instances of putting down volunteer stuff...and one of jsut saying, send money....I found that missing the entire point of service work and unerstanding of humanity</p>
<p>Interesting. My kids have done the travel thing (#2 S is with his grandparents in London on his way to Paris and Rome) and they've done intense volunteer work. I just happen to think that a good summer job is important, too.</p>
<p>There are two reasons for that. The first is that my kids are expected to earn part of they money they use to pay for their college education. Yes, I could pay it all, but what do they learn from that? They have a target amount they need to contribute that I think helps them feel they at least earned part of their way. They know not all of it was given to them.</p>
<p>The second is that they learn what they don't want to do for a living all their lives. Boys in particular have options that don't require college or at least completing college. The oldest boy refused to look at internships a couple of summers ago. When he realized I wasn't going to let him slack around the house, he took the first thing offered to him, working behind the meat counter at the grocery store. He hated it. Since then, all I have to do to motivate him to get an internship is remind him that the grocery store would be happy to have him back. He's managed to land two fine internships.</p>
<p>More to the point, he's motivated to finish college because he knows what it's like to not have a degree. I know how he feels. I loaded 60 lb crates of celery into 40 ft trailers the summer I decided that going for a college degree was a fine idea, myself.</p>
<p>Still, I can see how adcoms could feel any of these things, travel, volunteerism or work are good for a applicant <i>if he or she takes something important away from it</i>. It's not what our students do that's important; it's how what they do changes them for the better that matters. YMMV</p>
<p>Actually, the part time summer job was probably the least "valuable experience from the college admissions perspective" he had compared to the rest. It's not like the "car wash job" got him anything in the college applications game. He just did it for the extra cash and because it had extremely convenient hours (7 days a week so more flexibility, no nights). If anything, the engineering camp, and following the doctor around had the most impact on HIM PERSONALLY because today he's majoring in bio engineering and hopeful about going to med school.</p>
<p>"and DP, not everyone can get a job or just 4 weeks or so...imagine that"</p>
<p>Hee hee, this place he worked would have taken anyone for any length of time...they were always looking for people. Most of the guys who worked there were surfers and when the waves were good, they just wouldn't show up! And the owners put up with it! They were more than happy to just hire for the summer (love bug season), plus it was such a sucky job...beggars can't be choosers!</p>
<p>Actually, the owners didn't put up with it- they'd fire the guys, then end up having to hire them back later on because no one else applied for the job! :D</p>
<p>Edit: I cringe when I think of all these customers who brought their BMWs and Porsches in to be washed- this was a "hands on" car wash, and these guys wouuld actually get in their cars and drive them around to the different stations. Talk about giving some kid responsibility over a chunk of money!</p>
<p>Re post 127,
DS must be pretty sincere about becoming a doctor, after shadowing the gastro-guy. Can you imagine watching 4 or 5 colonoscopies in a morning and still wanting to practice medicine? :eek:</p>
<p>The jobs such as waitressing, retail, car wash, etc. may not have value for college admissions (but who cares, if you ask me.....my kids never chose what to do for college admissions reasons) but doing a job like that was often for the purpose of earning money. So, like ya said, I doubt the camp counselor or dinner server jobs had much bearing on my kid's admissions or education compared to her other activities, they served a different purpose....she got something out of the experience and earned money as well. </p>
<p>CGM, there are jobs one can get for any length of time. I have a child who has even created her own jobs. I can think of one job she did at 16 and will do again at 18 for just two weeks each time, which she created herself and will earn her at least $1500 (actually more) for the two weeks of work 9-3 each day. She has other short term jobs that pay $25-$50/hour, some of which she can do as often as she can or not, with flexibility. Not all jobs that young people get are the entire summer. Also, in this D's case, her jobs are all related to her field as well.</p>
<p>I believe kids will always, always, always come out ahead in the long run if they follow their own passions, interests, self-interests (yes, having a little extra cash is OK), and keep busy in healthy productive ways. Not trying to second guess what is going to look good on a college application. You can live your whole life that way- trying to figure out what pleases other people- where's it going to get you?</p>
<p>And sometimes things have a way of just working out. At 15, my S gnashed his teeth that he couldn't enrol in fall varsity soccer because they scheduled 2 weeks of practice in late August, our family's vacation time to visit grandma. Instead, he auditioned and was cast in an independent film shooting nearby in July. In most of the film scenes, his character was playing soccer at a summer camp. He earned about $30/day. Grandma was impressed. Win, win, win.</p>
<p>
[quote]
not everyone can get a job or just 4 weeks or so.
[/quote]
Well, that's kind of the point -- the kids who have work experience in high school generally are better able to find paying work when they want it. Employers are more likely to hire people who have experience; and kids who have worked and been through the job search and interview process are much more likely to go about finding work in an efficient and effective manner. They just have a better sense of what they want, how to present themselves, and where they are likely to be hired. They often have connections with previous employers that allow them to easily grab a short-term or seasonal position, even if they are able to work for only a few weeks while on break from school. </p>
<p>I've noticed that the posters who seem to be hostile to the idea of teens working seem also to be laboring under two misconceptions. One -- that the jobs will be menial tasks (folding clothes or dishing out ice cream) - and the second, that the kids are working in order to earn money for frivolous, materialistic reasons, such as to finance an unneeded car. </p>
<p>Meanwhile, the parents of employed teens have described an array of different jobs -- it seems most of our kids have worked their way into management slots if they stayed at a particular job for any length of time. They have the keys to the building -- one even had the combination to the company safe -- they are supervising others. So right there I see a cumulative advantage of working -- the employed teens have a better understanding of their own skills, the type of work available, and what they need to do to secure the higher paying positions. That may not be true of all teenagers, but I think that any kid whose got the intellect and drive to be aiming for the type of colleges discussed on CC has the capacity to do well for themselves in the workplace. </p>
<p>As to the second factor -- the idea that the money is used for selfish or materialistic reasons -- I guess that simply reflects the level of economic privilege that many CC parents have and are able to provide for their kids. I think most kids with jobs are paying for a significant portion of their living expenses -- or, in high school, their jobs might be what funds the EC's, volunteer work or travel. Not every kid has a parent who can simply write a check for everything they need or want. I'd note, however, that kids who are earning their own money also have a greater sense of independence - they don't have to beg their parents for money or explain or justify extra expenses to their parents. That's nice for my kid (and soozievt's) in New York, given the opportunities to spend money there. I realize that some parents simply write their kids generous monthly checks, with no questions asked -- but as noted, some of us just don't have that kind of money to bestow on our progeny. The kids quite simply are working for the same reason the parents are working -- because they need the money.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The jobs such as waitressing, retail, car wash, etc. may not have value for college admissions
[/quote]
I was amazed at how much my kids learned at their first, most "menial" jobs about how to run a business. You don't have to be the one in charge to observe what is entailed in running a restaurant or a grocery store. It was nice as a parent to listen to them come home and rant about how something could be done more efficiently. I found it even nicer when I would hear one of my kids say, "you know, I thought it was stupid that the boss did X... but I've just figured out why they do things that way....." (the bridge between the teenage know-it-all, and the older-but-wiser kid who has learned a thing or three about what can go wrong on a job).</p>
<p>
[quote]
Well, that's kind of the point -- the kids who have work experience in high school generally are better able to find paying work when they want it. Employers are more likely to hire people who have experience; and kids who have worked and been through the job search and interview process are much more likely to go about finding work in an efficient and effective manner.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Does that not intimate that there IS a direct relation between the experience accumulated at K-12 jobs and the jobs college students get after their ... junior year? </p>
<p>It is obvious that one may choose to cling to notions of views supporting their individual positions and somehow remain oblivious to the reality of ... others.</p>
<p>Calmom, you are obviously entitled to your opinions, but I would not be so quick to dismiss other voices, especially the voices of people who seem --in your eyes--hostile to teen employment. Some of us might not be "hostile" to the ice cream scooping and clothes' folding, but simply more realistic about the relative value of such employment for college graduates. Could it be that we see how those experience translate into the job market when we are a few months of landing jobs that are WAY different from the ones that helped pay the insurance of the family car or treat the sweatheart to a (well) scooped cone of ice cream at DQ? If you believe that having held the keys to a local sandwich shop helps landing a job at Citibank after graduation, power to you! I prefer to look at what happens around me and draw a different conclusion. </p>
<p>This said, I'll concede that having worked at Subway might help getting a similar job at Peter Piper Pizza.</p>
<p>I actually agree with what Calmom is saying. I don't think she necessarily meant that the jobs a teen had during summers in HS will help land their more professional jobs upon college graduation. What I heard her to say and what my kids have ALSO experienced is that by having some jobs on their resumes upon high school graduation, for example, they were able to land other part time jobs in college or in summers, because it helps to have some experience on the resume to land the next job. That has indeed been the case with my own kids. That doesn't mean the jobs helped land the career jobs after college graduation (though it can't hurt to show you have been employed before generally speaking). An example of what I saw in calmom's post was when my oldest child worked two summers teaching tennis and swimming in a day program for kids at a resort in town. With that, plus volunteering to be an asst. teacher in elem school, a paid dance teacher at a studio, and a volunteer youth soccer coach (half of these were paid jobs, half not), when she applied to work at jobs in France last summer (wanting to work overseas for the experience as she couldn't just pay for a fun summer but had to earn money to fund it) working in programs with children, her recommendations from previous jobs, and resume, helped land the interview and eventual hiring. As well, she also looked to work at restaurants/inns in France and landed a job at a beautiful chateau based on the fact she had recs and a resume of related work. She had to turn it down but that is besides the point. She is not planning to work with children upon college graduation. So, those jobs won't help in that regard other than having some employment record for what it is worth. But the HS jobs did help for later paid jobs she needed to earn money from while a student. </p>
<p>I also agree with another point Calmom made. And that is, sometimes when someone has employed you and been pleased, they are willing to have you back for short stints. That happened to D1 also. The job following HS graduation at a local tennis program liked her so much that the following summer after using her earnings to pay for an architecture program at Harvard Design School, she had four weeks back home when it ended and the job from the previous entire summer was willing to let her come for just the four weeks she had available because of being pleased with her work the previous summer. Another example is the country inn where she worked in high school would be happy to have her help out and pay her over XMas break when they are very busy, even though she is not regularly employed there any longer.</p>
<p>I also agree with her points that SOME kids hold jobs because they need to earn money for some things that other kids' parents are able to fund for them, and not simply just for luxuries. Sometimes these kids fund enriching experiences for themselves. For instance, my D is doing a paid internship in Paris right now in her career field, but her salary is low. However, she is doing it for the experience. But her savings from previous (less career oriented jobs) is enabling her to travel on days off to other European countries while there, and to supplement her lower earnings at this career oriented job. </p>
<p>I also agree that not all teens' jobs are of the so called "menial" sort. I've got another kid doing jobs in her career field and they are of a professional sort and she is paid very well to do them. Sometimes even young people can have a skill that others want. Sometimes teens can create their own jobs if they have a service or talent. This has worked for her. One job then leads to another, which is what she has been experiencing lately. Meanwhile, she has a work resume. She is still just 18.</p>
<p>I believe that the term "menial job" coupled with "teenager" is a misnomer. Age appropriateness plays into this. What exactly are we expecting a 16 year old to be able to DO, ANYWAY?? Most teens handle thousands of dollars over the course of a shift. What, are we expecting them to handle "millions" in order to be impressed? They handle our food, and ensure that we don't end up with food-borne illnesses. Pretty heady stuff. They go out and save my sorry a$$ when the sharks start nibbling on me at the ocean. My hat is off to them. When we get on that ride at Disney, they make sure we "keep our fingers and belongings in the vehicle at all times," therefore ensuring the safety of our life and limbs.</p>
<p>I think it's a device to put down teen menial jobs because they don't compare to later opportunities at Goldman Sacks or the US Senate. What difference does it make that the ice scream scooper job doesn't prepare you to be a White House intern? Gimme a break. </p>
<p>I for one appreciate the hamburger slingers, the lifeguards, the car washers, the babysitters, the ticket collectors, the Best Buy salesman... They have a lot more influence over our lives than most people give credit for. Their responsibility, or lack thereof, has a huge impact on my life. Give them some credit.</p>
<p>K-12 jobs, Xiggi? I can assure you, neither of my kids had paying jobs in kindergarten... though I think my daughter applied for her first paying job at around age 4. (An open call audition with several thousand applicants, but I suppose it was good experience on the job-applicant end of things). </p>
<p>I'm not sure I understand what you are referring to with the reference to "junior year", either.... do you mean college junior year? Are there students who wait that long before getting a paying jobs? Is that supposed to be a good thing? Why? </p>
<p>I'm kind of thinking that my kids are likely to be running their own businesses while their college classmates are still looking for their first jobs. I do know that all my son has to do is post his resume on Craigslist and the the calls start pouring in -- I observed it first hand when he was between jobs and lived at home for 2 months the year before he returned to school. These weren't menial positions -- they were administrative, management positions -- people with organizations looking to hire someone to take charge and run things for them. He turned down a job when he was returning to school where he was offered more than most college grads with BA degrees are looking at when they come out. ("Between jobs" didn't mean he wasn't working -- he had a temporary, part-time job paying significantly more than minimum wage all the time he had feelers out looking for something else -- it just didn't offer the career development opportunities he was looking for.)</p>
<p>Organizational and management skills transfer from one enterprise to another -- part of what distinguishes people who end up in leadership positions is the ability to recognize and apply the concepts learned in one setting to another. For example, because my son managed payroll for an organization with a large number of employees and high turnover, he is very knowledgeable about various state labor laws related to wages & hours -- those issues would come up in any job in any company where there are employees and wages are paid. It think the most valuable thing he picked up with his work was the interpersonal, management skills -- the ability to lead and direct a staff of several dozen employees. Being the boss, setting rules, and at the same time maintaining positive relations and motivating and encouraging the staff isn't easy -- but its an important skill to have if one is applying for management-level positions down the line.</p>
<p>My son will have years of paid, leadership-level work experience and a well established network connections in his intended career by the time he graduates next spring from college. He isn't going to have to take an entry level position -- he's already turned down jobs that are the type of thing he expects to be doing after he gets his degree. The main value of the degree is that it enhances long term career prospects. </p>
<p>I'm sorry that you can't see the connection. I was aware of it when I was very young because I happened to go to college very young - at age 16 - so I didn't have much work experience, and I found it to be a significant barrier -- I observed that my college friends who had worked steadily through high school and worked during college simply got better jobs every step of the way. A college degree is not a job ticket -- it is merely a qualification on a resume. Most employers pay only slight attention to the part of the resume that says "education" and focus most of their attention on the part that says "employment history." If the employers habitually recruit from certain schools, then the degree becomes even less significant -- since they are used to seeing resumes from graduates of those schools.</p>