What do you like about Cal?

<p>Hi, everyone, </p>

<p>What do you like about UC Berkeley? I keep seeing Cal mentioned as a good college for subjects some of the guys on my math team are interested in, but we aren't in California so I don't know a lot about the UC system. (I have been to the UC Berkeley, UCLA, and UC Irvine campuses on business trips over the years.) In particular, what is especially good about Cal compared to other colleges that someone could get into if that applicant is able to get into Cal? </p>

<p>Feel free to tell me (us) about anything that you find appealing about the UC Berkeley experience, inside or outside of class. I'm expecting to hear especially from actual Cal students or recent Cal alumni, not from curious onlookers like myself. What first got you interested in UCB? What was a pleasant surprise after you got there? How many of you are out-of-state students at Cal?</p>

<p>There are many opportunities and resources available at Cal, far more than other public universities (this doesn't mean these opportunities would land on your lap, you actually have to seek them out). The area is great (I grew up in the Bay Area), the weather isn't bad, and most people are pretty friendly here.</p>

<p>I've had some amazing professors, many interesting classes offered, the campus is great, the Bay Area is great, it's easy to visit San Francisco, the music scene in the Bay Area provides many concerts, the food in the city of Berkeley rocks, there are many great bookstores and music stores, you can find people interested in just about anything . . .</p>

<p>It's just so damned prestigious.</p>

<p>^^^^^hell yeah!!^^^^^</p>

<p>Only to average people.</p>

<p>What the hell is up with your damn superiority complex? Who the hell do you think you are anyway?</p>

<p>"Only to average people?" </p>

<p>There is no question Cal is prestigious. It's world famous and the Harvard of public universities. </p>

<p>You're just jealous.</p>

<p>Average people like those idiots who fill out US News surveys (college presidents, for example)?</p>

<p>---Shiboing Boing</p>

<p>What school do you go to?</p>

<p>I've been prowling around on Web sites rating undergraduate programs in computer science, and in math, for information for young people on the math team I coach, and UC Berkeley keeps getting mentioned as a top school in either category. How many of you are math majors there? How about computer science? What's the non-Californian enrollment in either of those majors?</p>

<p>Football .</p>

<p>tokenadult: might want to make it your own thread. I'm an incoming freshman, so I'm not really sure. I do know that the math department is exceptionally talented (for undergrad and graduates) and the ee/cs major (as well as the cs minor) are heavily sought after degrees.</p>

<p>College Deans rate Berkeley according to its graduate programs, not its undergraduate programs.</p>

<p>The main thing that inflates Berkeley's ranking is its great graduate programs which increases its ranking.</p>

<p>Ask any employer or grad school what they think of Berkeley students and you'll see that Berkeley students get little or no benefit aside from a little name recognition, especially outside of engineering, technical, and business disciplines. They just won't deduct points from you like they would a community college grad.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Ask any employer or grad school what they think of Berkeley students.

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</p>

<p>I'll try that, but I'm not sure I'd get informed opinions here in another part of the United States so far from California. I will note for the record that when I lived in Taiwan (six years out of my life, in two separate three-year stays), EVERYONE seemed very impressed by Cal, and that is one thing I keep in mind as I consider the possibility that some members of my family my end up over there again.</p>

<p>Because of the graduate programs.</p>

<p>Hmm, well I'll go into two aspects. First, the practical standpoint. Now, mind you, I'm going to speak from an EECS major perspective.</p>

<p>Berkeley offers a lot of opportunities. The class selection is very broad, and in the EECS major you can basically take any set of upper division courses you want. That means, for example, I'll be taking a Digital IC design course next semester along with a Operating Systems programming course--very different, very diverse, both interesting. There are some spectacular professors--though you do have to find them.</p>

<p>Further, there are many employment opportunities here. Many Silicon Valley and general Bay Area companies recruit from Berkeley. If you're looking to get a solid education and move into the industry in any engineering field, there will be a lot of opportunities here. Of course, you'll have to work hard and do well, but if you do, it opens a lot of doors.</p>

<p>From a social standpoint, Berkeley is big. That can be good if you're looking for diversity, but bad if you're looking for a bunch of similar people (e.g. you like to be surrounded by clones of yourself--culturally speaking). This means there are lots of opportunities to do interesting things that you might not have thought of. For example, I picked up mock trial in college despite having no experience, and found it entertaining, so I stuck with it. You have to be willing to try new things, though, otherwise you may not find what you really enjoy.</p>

<p>One of my biggest pieces of advice for new students is to try everything. Join every club that seems even remotely interesting, because you can always drop it later if it bores you. If you never try it, though, you'll never know it you'd have enjoyed it. Naturally, you'll have only so much time for such activities and you will have to pick only a few to stick with full time, but giving each one an opportunity will mean you'll enjoy college a lot more.</p>

<p>Now, a big advantage of Berkeley for Californians is cost, because it is significantly less than most privates. For out of state students, this isn't the case, and I don't believe Berkeley holds any significant advantage over many privates in that case. A negative of Berkeley is that the city in general, and parts of campus, are poorly maintained. It's not a big deal once you get used to it, but if you're like me from south Orange County (imagine rich, conservative, white suburbia), it's definitely different. However, Berkeley is also really a college town, meaning there are a lot of interesting, small shops within walking distance of campus.</p>

<p>As a comparison, since you've been to UCI, there is one very commercial food / shopping area across the street from UCI. Other than that, you'd have to drive to get anywhere useful. Irvine is just too suburban to be what I'd consider a "college town". Berkeley, on the other hand, is very dense and has a quality public transportation system (AC Transit and BART can get you anywhere it seems).</p>

<p>
[quote]
Ask any employer or grad school what they think of Berkeley students and you'll see that Berkeley students get little or no benefit aside from a little name recognition, especially outside of engineering, technical, and business disciplines.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't want to stray too far off topic here, but Berkeley is always on the list of schools that major technical firms recruit from. Just being from a reputable college will get you almost nowhere, though. You have to show much more than that. I agree that Berkeley students get no benefit from being Berkeley students, but at the same time Stanford, Harvard, etc. students will not be assumed better than Berkeley students (or MIT, Princeton, etc.) in the hiring process (assuming an engineering field--I have no experience otherwise). What I've seen from employers is that you have to know your stuff--if all your resume has is a 4.0 from HYPSM or Berkeley, you won't get even a glance if someone else has actual experience or other proof of technical skills.</p>

<p>
[quote]
College Deans rate Berkeley according to its graduate programs, not its undergraduate programs.</p>

<p>The main thing that inflates Berkeley's ranking is its great graduate programs which increases its ranking.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I guess any report about undergraduate stuff is so blinded and stupified by the graduate programs that the raters don't understand the difference between graduate and undergraduate programs. Clearly they don't know how to think or read well, and clearly all measures not related to ratings by others doesn't significantly influence Berkeley's rankings in various rankings. </p>

<p>For example, US News.</p>

<p>General -</p>

<p><a href="http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/about/weight_brief.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/about/weight_brief.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Peer Assessment</p>

<p>
[quote]
Peer Assessment. How the school is regarded by administrators at peer institutions. A school's peer assessment score is determined by surveying the presidents, provosts, and deans of admissions (or equivalent positions) at institutions in the school's category. Each individual was asked to rate peer schools' UNDERGRADUATE academic programs on a scale from 1 (marginal) to 5 (distinguished). Those individuals who did not know enough about a school to evaluate it fairly were asked to mark "don't know." A school's score is the average score of all the respondents who rated it. Responses of "don't know" counted neither for nor against a school. The survey was conducted in the spring of 2005, and about 57 percent of those surveyed responded.

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</p>

<p>A quarter of the score, and a significant boost to where Berkeley would be without it, but it still does not account for 3/4 of the ranking number, and guess what- other factors, like faculty resources (1/5 of the score) significantly influence the peer assesment! Do graduate programs influence peer assesment? Yeah, probably somewhat. But to claim that all of Berkeley's peer assesment is a function of its graduate programs is typical bombastic nonsense you spout, collegesenior->shiboingboing.</p>

<p>Too bad all of these PhD administrators are too stupid to read and think well.</p>

<p>Hmm after another look at the peer assessment ratings, I have to say that Berkeley has a very impressive peer assessment rating. I know it's not everything, but if ranked by p.a. rating, HYPSM would be 1st with a 4.9, and then comes Berkeley with a 4.8. Next would be Caltech and Columbia with 4.7. The main reason Berkeley gets such a lower overall ranking is the fact that it's a public school. It lets in so many students because its goal is to provide an education to as many people possible, meaning a lower SAT range, a higher acceptance rate, worse faculty/student ratio, lower graduation rates, etc. All these factors bring down Berkeley's overall ranking. However, if you look at purely academics and prestige, Berkeley's undergrad business is ranked 3rd, engineering is 2nd, and peer assessment (prestige factor) is ranked 6th. That's pretty good in my opinion.</p>

<p>Perhaps your grade-inflated philosophy major has made you unable to understand basic statistics and statistical analysis.</p>

<p>Let me explain in as parsimonious terms as possible for you.</p>

<p>Peer assessment is 25% of the score.</p>

<p>Deans are asked to rate the quality of a school's undergraduate programs. My point was that their entire assessment was based almost entirely off the strength of the graduate programs.</p>

<p>If Berkeley's prestigious programs were really as reknowned as the peer assessment seems to predict, then you would see Berkeley students with similar gpa's get into graduate and professional programs at top schools.</p>

<p>That is most definitely not the case. In many cases, in proportional terms and in many cases absolute terms, students from lower ranked schools than Berkeley, in terms of prestige, are more likely to get accepted from "less prestigious" schools. Indeed, it is fairly logical to assume an attending student to expect that since Berkeley is an academically prestigious school it would make them more competitive than students from less prestigious schools when moving up the academic food chain to graduate and professional schools.</p>

<p>Yet this is not the case. You'd think if the Dean of a college loves Berkeley, the adcoms would love Berkeley students.</p>

<p>But that is not the case. It is an inflated number soley attributed to the reputataion of Berkeley's graduate programs.</p>

<p>If you were to get rid of Berkeley's unrealistically high academic reputation score (given by people who are irrelevant to a berkeley graduate's continuing academic prospects), Berkeley's ranking would plummet commisserate to its much poorer showing in terms of faculty resources, and other factors in USNews' survey.</p>

<p>Berkeley should probably be ranked around 30th or so. I would daresay even UCLA is a better school because its placement rate into post-graduate programs is about the same as Berkeley yet offers an honors program where the academic environment would move it up in ranking (were USNews to consider the honors system alone separate from the overall school). </p>

<p>Yet another one of those pleasing arguments that tries to make out Berkeley to be better than it is, but fails to stand up under closer scrutiny.</p>

<p>Berkeley's ranking is indeed inflated and it is inferior to other schools around its tier if you account for the causes of that inflation.</p>