<p>Raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens. These are a few of my favorite things.</p>
<p>Quote: "I personally believe that revealed preferences are a far stronger indication of college quality."</p>
<p>I think this is more an indication of the popularity or prestige of a school rather than quality - although I admit that generally speaking, the schools that tend to be more prestigious tend to have higher "quality" education. My point is, these two aren't necessarily tied together. For example, I would argue many of the LAC's offer high quality educations, but aren't as prestigious as some of the larger, research-oriented universities.</p>
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I think this is more an indication of the popularity or prestige of a school rather than quality - although I admit that generally speaking, the schools that tend to be more prestigious tend to have higher "quality" education. My point is, these two aren't necessarily tied together. For example, I would argue many of the LAC's offer high quality educations, but aren't as prestigious as some of the larger, research-oriented universities.
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<p>Well, along those lines, I would argue that preference and overall prestige aren't always exactly consonant either. It is true that LAC's have very little mass-market prestige. But studies of college revealed preferences indicate that the LAC's often times tend to be preferred over more famous schools. For example, Wellesley enjoys unusually high preference despite it being almost unknown by the general public. Wellesley's status as the leading women's college provides strong cachet among the people who know colleges. </p>
<p>I believe the Hoxby paper is still the definitive study of revealed preferences, and is the only study I know of that actually ranks universities and LAC's together. Now, we can debate just how important revealed preferences are, but I am not aware of anybody revealing any serious methodological flaws in the paper. </p>
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But as an individual student, you are not choosing a school based on 'social good' or on public policy, rather you are choosing a school that will help you as an individual.
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<p>Actually, I know someone who chose to come to Berkeley over the likes of Princeton and Yale precisely because she measures colleges according to how their politics have propagated "social good" as opposed to "capitalist, elitist" oppression.</p>
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Actually, I know someone who chose to come to Berkeley over the likes of Princeton and Yale precisely because she measures colleges according to how their politics have propagated "social good" as opposed to "capitalist, elitist" oppression.
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<p>Well, that can't really be true, because if she was really so concerned about capitalistic and elitist oppression that Yale and Princeton supposedly represent, she would never have applied there in the first place. After all, why would you waste time and money in applying to schools that you would never go to anyway? </p>
<p>It seems to me that she is simply trying to justify her choice by using a convenient excuse. Maybe she turned down Princeton or Yale because she couldn't afford it, but she doesn't want to admit that, so she's clung onto another reason. It's like how nobody at Harvard wants to admit that to being there for the prestige, when the truth is, a lot of students (probably most) at Harvard are there just for its unbeatable brand name.</p>
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Well, that can't really be true, because if she was really so concerned about capitalistic and elitist oppression that Yale and Princeton supposedly represent, she would never have applied there in the first place. After all, why would you waste time and money in applying to schools that you would never go to anyway? </p>
<p>It seems to me that she is simply trying to justify her choice by using a convenient excuse. Maybe she turned down Princeton or Yale because she couldn't afford it, but she doesn't want to admit that, so she's clung onto another reason. It's like how nobody at Harvard wants to admit that to being there for the prestige, when the truth is, a lot of students (probably most) at Harvard are there just for its unbeatable brand name.
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<p>She applied to those schools because her parents forced her to. When she got in, her parents made her pick Princeton. But after graduation, she came out of the closet, and her parents stopped caring about her education. So she phoned Berkeley to beg for a spot and when Berkeley gave it to her, she phoned Princeton to say she was no longer going. Money wasn't a concern because she's a Gates Millenium Scholar.</p>
<p>I don't know, I still smell a fly in the ointment. I don't particularly see how parents can 'force' her to apply anywhere, and even if they could, if she really doesn't want to go there, it just seems to me that she could deliberately sabotage her own essays and/or her interview to get the school to reject her. Nor have I ever heard of anybody 'begging' Berkeley by phone to give anybody a spot and Berkeley actually relenting (with the possible exception of certain star athletes). </p>
<p>It just sounds too fantastical to believe. But hey, it's not me you have to convince, it's the other readers here. Let them decide whether they want to believe her story or not.</p>
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Nor have I ever heard of anybody 'begging' Berkeley by phone to give anybody a spot and Berkeley actually relenting (with the possible exception of certain star athletes).
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<p>Well she had already been accepted, though. I've heard of many other people who reject UCs and then turn around and ask those same UCs to let them in and, in many cases, it happens.</p>
<p>Ah, well, I misunderstood you. That's different. </p>
<p>However, I still find the story a bit hard to believe. Again, I don't see how a parent could really force a child to apply anywhere she doesn't want to go to, and even if that was possible, I don't see why the child wouldn't deliberately write a terrible essay (i.e. an essay full of swear words and about how she hates the school) just to get rejected, and of course the parents ought to know that the child has the power to do this and so not force her to apply anywhere she doesn't want to go to. </p>
<p>While I don't want to call anybody a liar, I do suspect there is more to the story. Like maybe she didn't really get into Princeton or Yale, and is just pretending that she did. I know people who claimed to have gotten into schools that they didn't actually get into. The actress Robin Givens once infamously claimed to have gotten into Harvard Medical School but this was later shown to be false. Or maybe it's because she now has a 'significant other' in the Bay Area that she doesn't want to leave. Or it could be something else.</p>
<p>But the point is, the story as it stands now, doesn't pass the smell test, at least in my opinion. If you really don't want to go to a school, how can anybody force you to compile a strong application to that school?</p>
<p>Maybe there is more to the story that I don't know, but it all seemed very real when it happened at my high school a few years back.</p>
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If you really don't want to go to a school, how can anybody force you to compile a strong application to that school?
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<p>How about...your parents taking the essays for the schools that you DO want to get into and "editing" them for the school of their choice? And then making sure that the "edited" essays get to said school?</p>
<p>The rest of the application is just data filling and recommendations. So it doesn't require the student. I'm sure lots of parents do this....especially on CC.</p>
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How about...your parents taking the essays for the schools that you DO want to get into and "editing" them for the school of their choice? And then making sure that the "edited" essays get to said school?
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<p>And how exactly would that happen? If the child had an inkling about what was going on, them the child would simply not tell the parents where to find these essays that she wrote for the school that she really wanted to go to. Why not just encrypt on those essays? Encryption software is readily available for free on the Internet. Better yet, just store them on a hidden place on the Internet - i.e. email them to yourself at a secret Hotmail or Yahoo Mail address that only you know about? Or, even more deviously, give "fake" essays to her parents for editing. After all, you're not forced to tell your parents which schools you are applying to, and you're certainly not forced to tell them which school is your true first choice. So how would they really know what your best essays really are, or even where they are located? </p>
<p>Let's not also forget that the application packet requires one thing that only the student can provide - which is her signature attesting to the fact that everything in her app packet was compiled by her (on pain of automatic rejection). I don't see how parents can force a child to sign something that she doesn't want to sign, and even if they could, the simple act of forcing her to sign a document would mean that she would know that her parents are actually applying to a school for her. And even if that were possible (extreme as it is), she could just later make a phone call or email to the school saying that she wishes to withdraw her (forced) application. </p>
<p>The other possibility, I suppose, is that the parents would simply forge her signature. But then that would mean that, once she learned that she was admitted to a school that she never applied to, she would know what had happened and then she could contact the school and tell them that the app packet that they got from her is forged and whatever signature they got is not actually hers. </p>
<p>The point is, the story has holes. If a child wants to sabotage an app, there is isn't a whole lot that the parents or anybody else can do to stop it. She can create a blog talking about how she really really hates that school, and then send an anonymous email to the adcom that links to that blog. There are so many things that she can do. And since the parents (if they have a brain) ought to realize that the process is so easily sabotaged, they should not be trying to engage in any subterfuge. </p>
<p>Besides, this whole digression actually points me to another possibility. I think it is entirely possible that this girl chose Berkeley just to extend a middle finger to her parents. Seems to me that she doesn't get along with her parents, and so she went Berkeley just to stick it to them because she knew that doing so would tick them off. But that gets back to my original thesis - which is that students chose a school to reach their own individual goals above considerations of 'social good'. It's just that in her case, her individual goal was to pull an in-your-face move on her parents. But it was still all about achieving her own individual goals.</p>
<p>I guess. Sure. Why not. :)</p>
<p>"I guess. Sure. Why not."</p>
<p>LMFAO HAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHA</p>
<p>"I guess. Sure. Why not."</p>
<p>I can't stand people like this. It is irritating when people just shun you like that.</p>
<p>"I can't stand people like this. It is irritating when people just shun you like that."</p>
<p>With all due respect to sakky, he was arguing a personal anecdote, which seems kind of pointless to me. I mean is it that hard to swallow that someone choose UCB over one of the letters in HYPS? Why must it be necessary to hypothesize every possible scenario? idk.</p>
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I can't stand people like this. It is irritating when people just shun you like that.
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<p>Alright, I'll try to provide an actual reply.</p>
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And how exactly would that happen? If the child had an inkling about what was going on, them the child would simply not tell the parents where to find these essays that she wrote for the school that she really wanted to go to. Why not just encrypt on those essays? Encryption software is readily available for free on the Internet. Better yet, just store them on a hidden place on the Internet - i.e. email them to yourself at a secret Hotmail or Yahoo Mail address that only you know about? Or, even more deviously, give "fake" essays to her parents for editing. After all, you're not forced to tell your parents which schools you are applying to, and you're certainly not forced to tell them which school is your true first choice. So how would they really know what your best essays really are, or even where they are located?
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<p>Well, sakky, for one thing, you would either have to think up of the encrypted idea, and then find out about the software, and then download it, run it, etc., or you have to write two essays, one "fake" and one "real." It's just much easier to do what your parents say and apply, since let's face it, there's a small chance for anyone to get into HYPS, so she probably just thought she wouldn't get in anyway.</p>
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I don't see how parents can force a child to sign something that she doesn't want to sign, and even if they could, the simple act of forcing her to sign a document would mean that she would know that her parents are actually applying to a school for her. And even if that were possible (extreme as it is), she could just later make a phone call or email to the school saying that she wishes to withdraw her (forced) application.
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<p>Sure a parent could force a child to sign it. They could threaten to cut off phone privileges, TV privileges, heck even cut off the food supply if they really want to force a child to do something. Parents have their ways. She could have called and withdrawn but maybe she didn't think of that.</p>
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The point is, the story has holes. If a child wants to sabotage an app, there is isn't a whole lot that the parents or anybody else can do to stop it.
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<p>The thing is, not many students would actually sabotage their own applications. It's far easier to just do what the parents say, hoping to get rejected, and then later argue about not going. We're too lazy in that regard. Besides, many students want to make their parents happy, so they apply to colleges their parents want them to apply to. I'm sure you have heard inumerable stories about parents' forcing their kids to apply to their alma mater. In most cases, the kids just did it.</p>
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Besides, this whole digression actually points me to another possibility. I think it is entirely possible that this girl chose Berkeley just to extend a middle finger to her parents. Seems to me that she doesn't get along with her parents, and so she went Berkeley just to stick it to them because she knew that doing so would tick them off.
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<p>Actually, this seems possible, except on the condition that she really didn't have a strong preference for Yale and Princeton in the first place, because I really don't think a student would throw four years at a top college away just to tick off her parents for a few days.</p>
<p>What I think really happened is just that she made some assumptions (politically) about the schools and just decided on that. I think your suspicions, sakky, are based off of the fact that you liken these students to yourself. I don't think the majority of high school seniors would even think of making their essays encrypted, or the parents think of forging their own child's signature. Sometimes students make decisions against the mainstream for obscure reasons. It's not something that you or I, or most people on CC would do, but this isn't the first time I've heard of someone choosing Berkeley over HYPS (although I admit I could count the times on one hand).</p>
<p>Oh by the way, I did enjoy your post on what you like about Berkeley. It was refreshing. :)</p>
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With all due respect to sakky, he was arguing a personal anecdote, which seems kind of pointless to me. I mean is it that hard to swallow that someone choose UCB over one of the letters in HYPS? Why must it be necessary to hypothesize every possible scenario?
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<p>It's not hard to swallow in the least. I know others who did the same. What is hard to swallow is that she did it for reasons of 'social good', as opposed to her own individual reasons. There is nothing wrong with saying that you chose a school for your own individual reasons. You don't have to try to cloak it in terms of the 'public good'. </p>
<p>For example, I know a guy who chose Berkeley over several of the Ivies. Why? Simple. Berkeley offered him a soccer scholarship. The Ivies obviously don't offer any athletic scholarships. He freely admits that he chose Berkeley over those other schools because he wanted to play soccer and take his best shot at getting into a professional soccer league like MLS or a European league. </p>
<p>But the key is he doesn't go around trying to pretend that it is anything more than it really is. He doesn't try to invoke politics or social optimality to justify his choice. He simply states that going to Cal would cost him less and provided him with a better opportunity for him to advance his soccer career. Nothing more, nothing less. </p>
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What I think really happened is just that she made some assumptions (politically) about the schools and just decided on that. I think your suspicions, sakky, are based off of the fact that you liken these students to yourself. I don't think the majority of high school seniors would even think of making their essays encrypted, or the parents think of forging their own child's signature. Sometimes students make decisions against the mainstream for obscure reasons. It's not something that you or I, or most people on CC would do, but this isn't the first time I've heard of someone choosing Berkeley over HYPS (although I admit I could count the times on one hand).
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<p>Look, my point is this. This is clearly not a 'normal' family situation we're talking about. If what was said was really true, and this is a girl who came out of the closet and now her parents have nothing to do with her, then this is clearly a highly dysfunctional family, and that means that I don't think that the girl or the family are thinking the way normal people would. A girl who is already hiding such a secret from her family would and should probably be thinking of numerous other devious ways to manipulate her essays or her applications. After all, if you're already lying to your family about your orientation, then it's no big deal to also lie to your family about where your essays are, or which school you really want to go to.</p>
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What is hard to swallow is that she did it for reasons of 'social good', as opposed to her own individual reasons.
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<p>But these reasons you bring up aren't mutually exclusive. After all, a Social Welfare major can care both about "social good" and individual advancement within the field of Social Welfare. And I actually believe the girl in question associated "evil" capitalism with her parents ("individual reasons") and Berkeley with "social good" - so it could really both. Things don't have to be as black and white as you paint them.</p>
<p>I don't believe I am painting the issue in such a fashion. My point stands - we choose a school based on individual considerations. Nobody who is rational will choose a school without considering whether it will help that person as an individual.</p>
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My point stands - we choose a school based on individual considerations.Nobody who is rational will choose a school without considering whether it will help that person as an individual.
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<p>Well, rationality is a relative social concept. You can't just make the assumption that some students truly aren't more concerned about others than they are about themselves. There's plenty of research and evidence that shows that, for whatever reason, many humans act against what society at large describes as "irrational" because said humans value the advancement of what they believe to be "socially good" above all else.</p>