what does Harvard think?

Colleges & Universities A-Z Harvard University
41

<p>sakky,</p>

<p>A couple of things, first I think you are citing the points of Krueger and Dale. Students who are qualified to attend a school like Harvard but choose to go elsewhere usually do as well as those that choose to attend Harvard. The examples you cite is part of the reasons those students were accepted to the Ivy League school in the first place.</p>

<p>Additionally, the point I was trying to make is that all the Ivy League schools are great schools but there is too much focus on what the school brings to the student and not enough of what the student brings to the school. </p>

<p>If you read "The Millionaire Next Door" you also see that many financially successful people come from the middle of their high school class. The author reasons that these individuals often have to think differently to stand out and that makes a big difference in their ability to do well financially.</p>

42

<p>If you just take a look at the kinds of courses Ivies offer. Some of the topics are just freakin awesome. Engaged learning, never knew it existed.</p>

43

<p>Byerly, your beloved cross-admit study is flawed.</p>

44

<p>I actually have read Byerly's articles. It isn't that the cross-admit statistic is wrong- 75 % of cross admits do choose Harvard over any other school. It is Byerly's assumption that this makes Harvard's class head and shoulders above any other that I would argue with. </p>

<p>First of all, as 4feynman posted on another thread, becuase Princeton is ED, early aceptees cannot apply to Harvard and become potential cross-admits. By contrast, students who have shown initial preference for Harvard by applyiing EA are free to apply to Princeton. Second of all, while cross-admits might be the most desirable students, they are not necessarily the "best" in a traditional sense of the word. Qualified racial, ethnic, and regional minorities are much more desirable than the average student, and therfore more likely to be accepted by multiple institutions. However, they are not necessarily more qualified academically or extracurricularly than their white, east coast counterparts. Yes, there are some kids who are cross-admits because they are exceptional even among a pool of high achievers, but we don't know how many there are, whether their accomplishments are real or a result of self-promotion, or whether they fall into the 75 % or 25 % in Byerly's oft repeated statistic. </p>

<p>According to the last US News and World Report, Harvard only ranked 4th for selectivity, behind Yale (1) and Princeton and MIT (tied for 2).</p>

<p>And don't bother replying with "blah, blah blah" as you so eloquently did to one of my previous posts on the subject, Byerly.</p>

45

<p>
[quote]
A couple of things, first I think you are citing the points of Krueger and Dale. Students who are qualified to attend a school like Harvard but choose to go elsewhere usually do as well as those that choose to attend Harvard. The examples you cite is part of the reasons those students were accepted to the Ivy League school in the first place.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No, I don't think so. There's a subtle point you've missed. </p>

<p>First of all, I think that all things being equal, going to a worse school will, on average, reduce your odds of success. The fact is, going to a school with more resources per capita, with more advising and consulting services, with a better brand-name (and therefore greater acceptability by employers) and with a more motivated student body tends to help the average person. I would say that the last point is the most important. The fact is, human beings are social creatures and tend to copy what they see around them. When people around you are highly motivated and hard-working, then you will tend to be highly motivated and hard-working. However, when people around you are lazy and don't really want to study or go to class, then you will tend be lazy and not really want to study or go to class. </p>

<p>However, the key words in the above paragraph are 'all things being equal'. The fact is, when you're talking about people who get into an Ivy and instead go to a lesser school, then all things are NOT equal. Like I said, these people are not random. These people all have REASONS for going to the lesser school. These people are NOT typical of the average incoming Ivy student. I would argue that these people may well be, on average, more motivated, more mature, more driven, and more immune to social pressures than the typical Ivy student - and these factors compensate for the fact that they are going to a lesser school. After all, a guy who turns down an Ivy to go to a BS/MD program at a no-name school is probably more motivated than the average Ivy student. This person already knows what he wants at age 18, which is a remarkable level of intellectual maturity at that age. Most 18 year olds, even at the Ivies, don't have that. </p>

<p>Which therefore leads to the following postulate. If you get into Harvard, should you turn it down to go to a no-name school? Only if you have the same sorts of reasons that those other people did. For example, If you know exactly what you want or you are already driven by a goal that can be best fulfilled at a no-name school, then you can safely turn down Harvard. But if you don't, then you should go to Harvard. </p>

<p>I'll give you another example. There was an article recently that talked about how people who dropped out of Harvard were possibly more successful than people who graduated from Harvard. This makes perfect sense when you realize that the people who dropped out of Harvard did it for very specific and well-defined reasons. Bill Gates didn't just drop out of Harvard for fun, he did it because he saw an opportunity in the computer industry, and he had the inner drive to pursue those opportunities. Matt Damon and Elisabeth Shue didn't drop out of Harvard for fun, they did it because they saw an opportunity in Hollywood, and they had the inner drive to pursue those opportunities Hence, it's not the 'dropping out of Harvard' that made them successful. It's the opportunities they encountered and their inner drive that made them successful, and those opportunities only incidentally led them to drop out of Harvard. </p>

<p>Hence, when you say that people who get into Ivies and go to lesser schools are just as successful as people who get into Ivies and go, I would say that you're really looking at the wrong variable. For example, a guy gets into Harvard but instead goes to a no-name school and is successful. But that doesn't mean that if I get into Harvard, I should also turn it down to go to a no-name school. That guy turned down Harvard for very specific reasons. If I don't have reasons like that, then I should not turn down Harvard. That's just like saying because Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard and is a billionaire, so that means that all Harvard students should drop out. You should only drop out if you have reasons similar to what Gates had.</p>

46

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<p>This is the single factor that made Harvard stand out for me. The extraordinary things that my classmates were doing made me (1) want to do equally extraordinary things and (2) believe that I could do them too, if I tried. How about planning an annual six-continent world tour for your student-directed singing group? Or researching, writing, and publishing a best-selling series of budget travel guides? Or inviting a sitting head of state or A-list Hollywood star to be a guest at a student event? Or taking a year off from college to be a speechwriter for Hillary Clinton? Being surrounded by 19-year-olds who were doing all those things, and doing them well, completely changed my ideas about what was possible in my life.</p>

47

<p>sakky,</p>

<p>I understand what you are saying but unfortunately I still disagree. I believe that the student that turns down an Ivy league school can do it for a number of reasons, not just the BS/MD programs (one of which is available at Brown). I believe the primary motivating factor is economic, either lack of money or a merit scholarship offer. It does not take too much intellectual maturity for an 18 year old to accept that their parents would prefer not to go into debt for their education. Another example would be of a student who hought they may want to go to Harvard but decided that the weather in southern California and the UC system would ultimately be more to their liking.</p>

<p>I also still believe that the maturity and drive of those students that choose to go elsewhere is one of the primary factors in their getting accepted to an Ivy League school in the first place. All schools, particularly those in the Ivy League, place a high value on commitment and ECs. So I guess we just disagree but I also would like to know a bit more about the study.</p>